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#because it's another example of jyl being so accepting of wwx
clintbeefwoods · 9 months
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so i finally finished the final book of MDZS (actually finished it a while ago, just needed a bit of time to ruminate over my thoughts) and have decided on my ultimate opinions about it.
firstly, MDZS is one of my favorite IPs ever. I love every iteration of it (except CQL; explained below) and I think lan wangji and wei wuxian are the best main characters that MXTX has created out of the three available series. there are a few reasons for this, but mostly:
wei wuxian is extremely believable. as someone who experienced a lot of heavy trauma early on, i find him relatable in a lot of ways that i'm not usually able to see in other media. his descent into madness in his first life is something that follows his beliefs and his experiences in a logical and explainable way, regardless of whether it was right or wrong (spoiler, he committed war crimes and slaughtered thousands; there's not really an ethical argument for that.) the important thing is that we can follow his path as a person and each thing he does makes sense in the context. it feels real and grounded. he's silly, he makes mistakes, he overcompensates, he has flaws. he's likable and charismatic without losing the things that make him human.
WWX and LWJ learn from their mistakes. when wei wuxian has a second chance at life, he makes attempts to avoid being the person he was in the past. while it turns out that it's a little easier said than done, he learns to rely on those around him (namely LWJ) and manages to protect the things that are precious to him while doing his best to be accountable. LWJ chooses to stay by WWX's side no matter what, and doesn't care if he breaks sect rules anymore. he also decides to protect that which is precious to him, and doesn't waste his time doing things he will regret anymore. it takes them both the entire series to really get to the place they need to be, but they both make it (not in spite of everything, but because of it).
WWX and LWJ develop a healthy relationship. there's things in wwx's previous life that weren't great, and throughout the books he pulls some serious shit and plays around with lwj's feelings. the thing is, when he realizes lwj does have those feelings, he's quick to finally recognize them and apologize for the way he was before. they learn how to communicate and respect one another, and deeply cherish one another without exception (even before wwx realized what exactly he was feeling). even in the realm of nsfw, they have clear boundaries and are comfortable trusting each other not to overstep. they don't just get it, they have conversations and pay attention to each others' wants and needs.
now, there are also some other things i really love that don't involve wwx or lwj, namely, that MXTX handles some extremely complex issues in a thoughtful way.
for example, jin ling's feelings about JC, WWX, WN, and JGY are complicated, evolving, and difficult for him to sort out. i think most people would respond to finding out life-shattering truths with difficulty, especially as a kid. JC and JGY were practically his parents, and he adored both of them; on the flip side, he despised WWX because of his involvement in his parents' deaths. when JGY's crimes come to light, he can't make himself hate the man he thought he knew, and when WWX accepts his role in the deaths of JYL and JZX, he finds that he really can't hate him, either. it's clear that he recognizes how much WWX loves him, and even though we don't see clear-cut forgiveness, we do see the two being affectionate in their own ways.
similarly, the complexity of JC and WWX's relationship is very delicately handled; it's understandable for JC to feel angry and guilty, and even though they've both made relationship-ending mistakes they ultimately begin to heal in their own ways. WWX grieved the loss of those twin heroes long before he died, but JC never got the closure he desperately needed. they don't jump into each other's arms, and nothing is magically fixed. that's okay, and i appreciate their journeys to find their way as separate people.
there are a lot more reasons, from symbolism to the almost poetic way in which it was written, to the way MXTX uses unreliable narration to control the way the reader perceives the narrative. the author makes great use of symbolism, foreshadowing, and calling back previous experiences. from the way the story flows to the gradual reveals of the past, it's an incredible experience from start to finish.
now, to the one thing i had to think a lot about: jin guangyao.
i got flamed really hard for my opinions on this guy, and frankly, they haven't changed. he was well-executed, well-designed, well-written, and served as a fantastic antagonist for the series. frankly, i don't really think there were any truly bad characters, in the aspect that all of them were enjoyable in their respective roles.
what i don't like is that some people go to great lengths to explain away his actions.
just a warning, i'm going to reference some arguments i've seen from fans that are really gross, so if you don't want to hear about eugenics, ableism, and sexual assault, you should probably stop reading.
it's fine if a person likes a character who has done bad things. the main character is guilty of a myriad of really awful actions, from murder to cutting a dude's dick off and feeding it to him. i still like him, and it's a fictional universe. i can recognize that something like that happening IRL is wildly unacceptable and unethical.
what's not fine is when someone starts making real-life arguments that serve as an excuse for a character's behavior. in the story, it is heavily implied that JGY had a hand in orchestrating the death of his son, who was conceived with his half-sister. we know from the story that JGY claims he didn't know QS was related to him until after she was pregnant, and although the claim is unverified, the narrative reveals that QS's mother was assaulted by JGY's father and that QS was a product of that attack. it's very likely that QS's mother would have taken that fact to her grave over her shame if QS and JGY hadn't been engaged. ultimately, he claims responsibility for his son's death, though this is also never directly verified.
while i personally believe it is very likely that JGY used a-song to his advantage, i respect arguments that JGY didn't directly kill him and instead just used the aftermath to further his position. we'll never know for sure.
however, i have overwhelmingly seen people argue that regardless, JGY had no choice but to kill him, since his son would certainly be disabled and it would be a mercy for him to die. like, regardless of whether or not someone really believes that, that's such an awful fucking thing to write. as it turns out, there are real people out there who are affected by the consequences of incest, and regardless of whether or not the author of the argument means it, saying something like that communicates a belief that people can be genetically inferior or that disabled people are better off dead. sure, a person might not be thinking that, but the words you use matter, and those arguments are unacceptable. some MDZS fans really reach to justify certain behavior or to demonize other behavior.
i'm not going to get into the other arguments because this has gone on long enough, but i will admit that i refuse to watch CQL because the majority of toxic behavior i've encountered in the fandom comes from people who seem to be hyper-fixated on the live-action iteration. obviously, not everyone who likes CQL is like that, but it's disturbed me enough to not have any interest in it. i'm sure it's great, and i'm sure no one cares, but i just feel like admitting that.
anyway, at the end of the day, y'all do you, but please be respectful. remember that how you choose to speak online does have an effect on people.
also don't attack people for not feeling the same way as you about your favorite blorbo. as sonic would say, that's no good.
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weiwuxian-lanzhan · 3 years
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ouyangzizhensdad · 3 years
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RE: WWX and his arc being about trauma. I got into the fandom through CQL and the first time I saw it I actually read a lot of his actions post the burning of Lotus Cove as being influenced by his trauma. He's paranoid even before getting thrown into the burial mounds. He seems to be self medicating with alchohol (which WQ kinda calls him out on). He over-reacts to a lot things, which seems to me like a nasty case of emotional dysregulation as a result of PTSD. He avoids all kinds (1/3)
Of reminders of his tramua, his sword being the greatest example but there were other little things. He never gave much of a fuck about propriety but the way he completely igonres it (and the possible social fallout) later speaks to me less about not caring and more about not *having* the emotional capacity to care, much like what happens with depression. Plus, a lot of his behaviour can be read with various shades of being self destructive, and there are just in general a lot of points (2/3)
Where it's made clear that he's in a pretty bad headspace (him crying about being useless in the burial mounds for example), but none of that ever really gets dealt with so all of those issues are still hanging under the surface even if they're not apparent all the time. I mean, this is just my take, but at least imo WWX ticks a lot of the checkboxes for PTSD in the drama and it explains a lot about the way he acts and the bad decisions he makes. Hope this was helpful! (3/3)
I'm only referring to the drama btw, not the novel (which I haven't read yet). My memory is terrible so I'm not sure if I made it clear or not lol. Anyways, have a good day ^^
Hi there, 
I am always curious when people who have only engaged with CQL end up engaging with my novel-only meta blog but perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised: if CQL posts end up in the mdzs tag, why not the opposite? I’ve seen some of my novel meta reblogged and tagged with “the untamed” and “CQL” so maybe the answer is already out there, staring at me in the face! 
I’ll start by saying that I do not wish to really argue with people’s interpretations of CQL since I consider that MDZS and CQL are very different works because so many changes were made in the process of adapting the novel, and I personally have no interest in analysing CQL except wrt  how it can help us better understand the novel (seeing certain elements removed or changed may help us understand why they mattered in the first place or what their use was). So I will speak to the arguments that could be applied to the novel and why *I* don’t think WWX’s arc in the novel is about trauma, and why I don’t think that picking up certain behaviours that can be exhibited by people with PTSD (but not exclusively by people with PTSD) is enough in itself to support the idea that a character’s arc is about trauma/shaped by PTSD. That does not mean that my interpretation is the only acceptable one--I am aware that a lot of people disagree with me on this and see trauma as a central theme/central part of WWX’s arc--and so I expect that a lot of people will disagree with my points (hopefully after they’ve read this post in good faith). And that’s perfectly fine: how likely is it that we can find another person who will agree 100% with our own interpretation of a work of fiction? And having divergent opinions floating around the fandom, or having to develop counter-arguments is a good way to strengthen our own pov if we don’t find ourselves convinced by that other interpretation, so it’s all good. 
So first, I’ll address the biggest point of my argument before moving to address more specific points you raise in your ask. For me, WWX’s characterisation is not about trauma but about resilience. 
So first, let’s clarify some things. Going through adversity/experiencing a situation that is difficult =/= experiencing trauma. Trauma is a concept referring to a potential response to going through adversity/experiencing something distressing or disturbing. In short, trauma as it is conceptualised and understood is not universal: not only in the sense that is a spatiotemporally specific concept used to make certain experiences intelligible, but as the reaction to difficult events (as well, what is considered to be an experience that falls under that concept is not itself universal and can take many gorms, and the behaviours and thoughts associated with trauma are generally not exclusive to it, ie having certain behaviours/thought processes is not an automatic proof that someone is dealing with trauma/ptsd). So after all this word vomit I want to clarify that my intent is not to suggest that WWX doesn’t go through experiences that are likely to cause trauma, but that to me, what is being portrayed is a different reaction to these events: resilience (if a slightly more “fictional” portrayal of resilience than what it would be presented in psychology/psychiatry). 
Resilience refers to how people adapt or recover successfully from adversity/distressing situation/stress. That does not mean that people’s first reaction to adversity/distressing situations will be not defined by negative emotions, of course. For instance, I don’t think WWX’s heightened paranoia/emotional state directly after the fall of LP when he goes to look for JC is an indication of trauma because at this point WWX is still deep in the middle of that moment of adversity: he’s still a fugitive in the middle of a war, in the middle of danger. This also doesn’t mean that people cannot still have some temporary negative reactions to things that happened to them, afterwards: WWX having to pause when JC presents him with Suibian after he returns from Mass Grave Hill is not inherently an indication of trauma as it can be read that his sword a reminder of the difficult sacrifice he made--and the consequences he faced as a result (just because a situation was not traumatic doesn’t mean we enjoy revisiting it).
Why I think that WWX’s arc or characterisation is about resilience rather than trauma is because of many things, but mostly I want to point out two sections of the novel in particular. 
First, this characterisation of WWX through JYL that we get relatively early in the novel:
Most memories from back then were already blurred. Yet, Jin Ling’s mother, Jiang Yanli, remembered all of them, and even told him quite a few. She said that, after his father heard of the news that his parents both died in battle, he had always dedicated himself to finding the child that these past friends had left behind. After searching for a while, he finally found the child in Yiling. 
The first time they met, Wei Wuxian was kneeling on the ground, eating the fruit peels that somebody tossed on the ground. Yiling’s winter and spring were quite cold, yet the child only wore thin layers. His knees were already tattered, and on his feet were two different shoes that didn’t fit at all. As he was looking down, searching for fruit peels, Jiang Fengmian called him. He still remembered that there was a “Ying” in his name, so he lifted his head. Although his cheeks were both red and chapped from the cold, he still wore a smile. 
Jiang Yanli said that he was born with a smiling look. No matter what unfortunate thing happened, he wouldn’t cling on to them; no matter what situation he was in, he would be happy. Although it sounded a bit heartless, it really was not bad.
This refers to a time of his life that is extremely difficult: he lost both his parents suddenly, at a young age, became suddenly homeless with no means to feed himself except to beg, and yet the only trauma he seems to carry from this experience is related to dogs. To me, this is a clear move from MXTX to position WWX as the kind of protagonist who can face a storm and keep his smile on his face. I can imagine that some people take it perhaps as a subversion, as the text telling us that WWX is weathering it all with a smile but underneath it all he is just a bundle of unaddressed trauma. And that’s certainly a possible interpretation, but it’s not mine. In this case I think the text is being straightforward. What we see of WWX also seems to support that: the way WWX just rolls with being brought back from the death, how easily he finds a way to adapt to things, etc.
I also find it meaningful that the novel choses to include in its ultimate chapter this discussion as part of its wrap-up of WWX’s journey and of Wangxian’s relationship.
After they left the shop, Wei Wuxian still sat on Xiao Pingguo while Lan Wangji held the reins in front.Swaying left and right atop the donkey, Wei Wuxian took the flute from his waist and placed it by his lips. The limpid notes flew across the sky like birds. Lan Wangji halted and listened quietly.
It was the song he sang for Wei Wuxian when they were stuck in the Xuanwu cave. It was also the song that Wei Wuxian just so happened to have played at Dafan Mountain, the song that enabled Lan Wangji to confirm his identity.
When he finished, Wei Wuxian winked his left eye towards Lan Wangji.
“How was it? Beautiful, huh?”
Lan Wangji slowly nodded. “For once.”
Wei Wuxian knew that ‘for once’ referred to how his memory was good for once. He could not help but smile.
“Don’t always be so angry about it. It was my fault in the past, alright? Besides, my terrible memory should be accredited to my mom.” Wei Wuxian propped his arm on Xiao Pingguo’s head, spinning Chenqing in his hand. “My mom said you have to remember the things others do for you, not the things you do for others. Only when people don’t hold so much in their hearts would they finally feel free.”
This was one of the only things he remembered about his parents.
Of course, this is not a direct reference to resilience as it is explored in psychology. But to me it speaks to that idea: one of the biggest lesson WWX has kept with him, one of his only memory of--and thus legacy from--his parents, is this idea that we should not hold so much in our hearts. It also reframes his bad memory as being the result of a philosophy, of an approach to life that not just about being grateful/paying your debts to others, but also a form of resilience, in a sense. 
As well, I find that a lot of people who go with the trauma interpretation see WWX’s actions and thoughts processes dyring his YLLZ’s days as being the result of his ptsd, where I personally read it as the influence of modao. I am aware as well that some people do not think that modao actually harmed WWX during that period of his life, but I don’t think that LWJ would have been worried if there were not reasons to believe it would:
One against two, Lan Wangji still refused to back off. He gazed at Wei Wuxian, “Wei Ying, for cultivating an evil path you would eventually have to pay. Throughout time, there has not been a single exception.”
Wei Wuxian, “I can pay.”
Seeing how unconcerned he seemed to be, Lan Wangji lowered his voice, “The path would not only damage your body, but your heart as well (此道损身,更损心性。)”
So now, onto the specific points you raised in the ask.
Self-medicating with alcohol: WWX is shown to enjoy and drink large amounts of alcohol before the fall of LP and after most of the events of the novel have unfolded. In the novel, while WQ tries to make WWX stop drinking, it is as likely to believe that it is for his health (now that he doesn’t have a golden core) than it would be because she was worried he was self-medicating. As well, heavy drinking is a very normalized behaviour (although most physicians don’t think it’s a good thing) in a lot of cultures and times, and considering WWX’s higher tolerance and his general demeanor while imbricated, his drinking is not shown to have a negative effect on his ability to live his life. The line between “self-soothing” (normal aspect of being humans dealing with emotions and hardships) and “self-medicating” (pathological) is hard to trace with alcohol consumption. As well, just because people with PTSD may self-medicate with alchohol doesn’t mean all people who self-medicate with alcohol do it because of PTSD. 
He's paranoid even before getting thrown into the burial mounds. As I mentioned briefly before, WWX is at the time a fugitive in the middle of a war: he’s still in the middle of those stressful events and his paranoia is not necessarily a maladaptive response since they are still very much fugitives in the middle of a war. Trauma is not really your reaction during but in the aftermath. It would be more telling if WWX were still exhibiting signs of paranoia in situations where he would have no reasons to. 
He over-reacts to a lot things, which seems to me like a nasty case of emotional dysregulation as a result of PTSD. I’m not certain at which reactions you are referring to here, but especially considering that some of this might be chalked up to acting choices since this is based on CQL, I probably won’t address this one point too much in relation to the novel. I do want to emphasize though that we’ve seen prior to Sunshot campaign that WWX can be quite impulsive in certain situations (hitting JZX for insulting Shijie, which he does both before and after the events of the Sunshot Campaign). As well, I do think it’s important to remember that he is still in the middle of the war during the Sunshot campaign, and that he is also hiding something pretty important from the people close to him and living a sort of double life, on top of experiencing fatigue/hunger in a way he hasn’t for years due to the loss of his golden core. In short, there are a lot of things going on that can be used to explain what can be seen as “over-reactions” without necessarily going with PTSD.
avoids all kinds  reminders of his trauma, his sword being the greatest example but there were other little things. I’ve broached in my previous discussions, but it’s also pertinent to remember his mom’s philosophy: we can also see this as WWX trying to leave in the pass this difficult sacrifice he made in order to move forward. 
He never gave much of a fuck about propriety but the way he completely ignores it (and the possible social fallout) later speaks to me less about not caring and more about not *having* the emotional capacity to care, much like what happens with depression. I have to disagree with that interpretation of WWX and WWX’s actions, but again this might just be a case of CQL-only vs novel-only interpretations of the character. One thing WWX thinks about being reborn in a “lunatic’s” body is that he’ll get to have fun, the way he never could when his actions reflected on others. So while at times WWX flaunts propriety, he is aware of how his actions can impact others and show in different situations that he is aware of propriety. His choice to protect the Wen Remnants goes against that, for sure, but it isn’t necessarily a case of not understanding the possible social fallout so much as putting other things (ie his life-debt towards WN and WQ) before propriety, as we can see for example in this exchange.
Jiang Cheng, “I’m the one who fucking wants to give you a thrashing! Yes, they helped us before, but why in the world don’t you understand that right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism! No matter who they are, with a surname of Wen they have committed a most heinous crime! And those who protect the Wen are at risk of being condemned by everyone! All the people loathe the Wen-dogs so badly that the worse they die the better. Whoever protects them is against the entire world. Nobody would speak for them, and nobody would speak for you either!”
“I don’t need anyone to speak for me.”
[...]
Swords unsheathed, the two stared at each other for a while. Neither was willing to take a single step back. A while later, Jiang Cheng spoke, “Wei Wuxian, have you still not realized what the situation at hand is like? Do you really need me to say it out loud? If you insist on protecting them, then I won’t be able to protect you.”
“There’s no need to protect me. Just let go.”
Jiang Cheng’s face twisted.
Wei Wuxian, “Just let go. Tell the world that I defected. From now on, no matter what Wei Wuxian does, it’d have nothing to do with YunmengJiangShi.”
“… All for the Wen Sect…? Wei Wuxian, do you have a savior complex? Is it that you’ll die if you don’t stand up for someone and stir up some trouble?”
Wei Wuxian stayed quiet. A while later, he answered, “So that’s why we should cut ties right now, in case anything I do affects YunmengJiangShi in the future.”
a lot of his behaviour can be read with various shades of being self destructive Which ones, specifically? I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m not sure which ones you mean. 
he's in a pretty bad headspace (him crying about being useless in the burial mounds for example) It needs to be said that the crying is only in CQL (it was an acting choice by XZ). My memory is playing tricks on me, but I think pre-rebirth we only see him cry after he kills JZX and after JYL’s death? Someone please fact-check me on this. 
Since I don’t believe it was MXTX’s intent to make WWX’s characterisation and arc about trauma, I do feel like interpreting the different behaviours as signs of his PTSD might lead us to miss out on other potential interpretations or meanings behind these choices, if we put aside the PTSD angle. It may also lead us to deny the text the possibility to signify something different through these behaviours and signs, especially on a thematic level--to explore something about how events and emotions shape us in a manner that exists outside of modern psychiatric classification.
TLDR (because god this got long): My point is not that WWX is unaffected by the things that happened to him or the things he’s done during this portion of his life: of course he is! Especially as they are happening to him, or when he is still stuck in a very difficult situation. But I don’t think his character and his arc is about trauma but instead about resilience. That, at the end of MDZS, WWX is still the person JYL described: No matter what unfortunate thing happened, he wouldn’t cling on to them.
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chnqin · 3 years
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My Epic MDZS/The Untamed Daemon AU
I’m sure other people have already done Daemon AUs, but this idea wouldn’t leave me alone. I have been working on this for like three weeks now.
I just wrote down my first instinctive thought for most characters, and then researched* further into subspecies etc. What I found for a lot of the animals made me agree with my first opinion even more, although all of these are obviously just my own opinions. I also decided to stick to non-mythological animals. (some characters have been given a lot more consideration than others, I’m sorry)
Wei Wuxian: beech marten Beech martens are quick and clever. The are nocturnal, omnivores, and skilled swimmers. They move through paths made by larger animals such as hares in the snow. {further notes under read more}
Lan Wangji: white hare More solitary animals. They have an association with the moon, which I tend to associate LWJ with. {f/n}
Jiang Cheng: osprey Aquatic birds; good hunters. {f/n}
Lan Xichen: white stag {f/n}
Jiang Yanli: asian black bear {explained in detail under the read more}
Jin Zixuan: lion Ngl it’s probably because the Persian pokemon reminds me of him
Jin Guangyao: domestic cat {f/n}
Nie Huiasang: pangolin {f/n}
Nie Mingju: wolf {f/n}
Wen Qing: Chinese sparrowhawk {f/n}
Wen Ning: black Formosan mountain dog (tuguo) {f/n}
Lan Sizhui: Xiasi Quan dog or red panda or badger {f/n}
Jin Ling: lion {f/n}
Lan Jingi: monkey They’re respected animals but also have a mischievous side
Ouyen Zihzen: capybara No, they’re not native to China, but this is what I imagined him as and I couldn’t get it out of my head or find a perfect substitute
Xiao Xinchen: swan He just gives me major swan vibes, possibly something to do with Swan Lake (as do some Lans but they’re not graceful in the same way or tragic in the same way)
Song Lan: oriental hobby falcon or black horse He struck me as some sort of raptor, but I also liked a horse for him 
Luo Qingyang/Mianmian: lynx
Lan Qiren: sheep Symbolise filial piety. Also follow other people without question (*cough* the Lan Sect elders)
Jiang Fengiman: otter Spends a lot of time around the water, just what popped into my head
Yu Ziyuan: snake Because Zidian
The Jiang Sect favour animals who live near or on the water, some even possessing daemons which are fully aquatic, and thus are unable to leave Lotus Pier
The Lan Sect usually have herbivore animals for daemons and favour swift, elegant animals.
The Jins tend towards lions and panthers, but also flashy, rich birds like pheasants and peacocks (which makes WWX’s nickname for JZX even more funny).
The Nies often have pack or herd animals. Wolves and mountain lions are very common, but also a lot of horned animals like oxen, mountain goats and sheep (bighorn sheep and ibex are common), and also wild boar.
The Wens were typically birds of prey (the Dire Owl becomes Wen Chao’s daemon) or mountain cats.
The Yus often have daemons which take reptile form. Wildcats also common.  I quite like the idea that the Yus are a sect which has cultivated the ability to separate themselves from their daemons.
~Further notes on why I picked these animals, Daemon settling, angsty AUs of my AU, and research disclaimer under the cut~
Story & Research Notes:
(I’m going with the idea that trauma can make a daemon settle into a particular form)
WWX A marten was the first thing to come to mind for WWX, I have no idea why, but the more I thought about it the more I liked it. They’re really inquisitive, playful, and cute, but are also predators and will fuck you up if necessary.  A crow was another obvious choice because they’re curious and inventive, but with a bit of a dark connotation. However, in my version at least (I’m not great on His Dark Materials canon), Daemons usually settle in the early teens, and at that point WWX really didn’t have as much darkness in him as he develops later. 
I think WWX was one of those people whose daemon changed with every thought and feeling of his, whose daemon changed so rapidly and so repeatedly that people would complain of motion sickness watching it. His daemon’s most common forms were a martin, a magpie, an otter (which drove Madam Yu nuts), and (after JYL’s settled) very occasionally a bear.
When WWX comes back most people don’t realise anything is wrong because Mo Xuanyu always hid his daemon (I think it was probably something like a field mouse although how funny would it be if Little Apple was actually his daemon and WWX unknowingly inherited her along with the body), so they just think his has settled into something too big to hide now. However, his beech martin is the other reason Lan Wangji knows who Wei Wuxian is (WWX’s daemon hides from Jiang Cheng at Dafan Mountain, so JC only suspects it’s WWX). (Angsty AU further down)
LWJ I know that arctic hares aren’t native to China, but I want you to pretend that something like that does exist because I need lwj to have a white hare daemon. They are also bigger than other hares and cuter (they look slightly less cursed than some hares do). I’m imagining a lot of the daemons being slightly bigger than their real-life animal counterparts would be, so imagine the ears coming up to a normal person’s hip-height when the daemon is sitting. Rabbits can also apparently symbolise hope, and that suits someone who is known to go where the chaos is, bringing hope and light in the darkness. 
As a child, LWJ’s daemon was expressive in a way he never could be. It liked to take snow leopard form a lot, which was seen as excessively violent to the Lan sect, who preferred non-carnivorous animals, and often snarled at people. His daemon always took snow leopard form when visiting his mother so it could curl up with her tiger daemon. 
LWJ’s daemon settled exceptionally early, shortly after his mother’s death, into an acceptable hare form. Lan Xichen always wondered if LWJ himself made his daemon settle, if she was not supposed to have been a snow leopard all along, and so always looks upon LWJ’s daemon with a bit of sadness because he feels like it was LWJ stifling - almost killing off - a part of his personality (spoiler: it was) in order to fit into the Lan sect.
(More on that in an angsty AU below)
JC Ngl, I wanted to make Jiang Cheng a goose because they’re always angry but I didn’t. Jiang Cheng shifted mostly between a hunting dog and a mouse as a child, both of which infuriated Yu Ziyuan (honestly what she wanted her children’s daemons to be even I don’t know). Jiang Cheng’s daemon settled very late (another thing his mother wasn’t happy with). In fact, it didn’t settle till the attack on Lotus Pier and the death of his parents, when it took the shape of an osprey (because he wanted to be able to fly away and pretend none of it ever happened). 
Even more angsty: One Chinese poem has the Osprey as a symbol of marital harmony and fidelity. Upon seeing his parents death, finally united in a way they hadn’t been in life, JC’s constant wish for his parents to love each other (and, by extension, him) physically manifests itself in his daemon.
JYL I know what you’re thinking. Why the hell did you give Jiang Yanli a bear of all people. Well I’ll tell you. For two reasons: one, because I can do what I want, and two, because I would say one of JYL’s most central characteristics is her wish to look after people. She’s not physically strong in the way most other cultivators are, however, and she’s always having to keep the peace at home - and so I can see her daemon becoming a physical manifestation of that need to protect (bears are known to be protective, particularly mothers), and a physical example of her inner strength which is so often overlooked.
Yanli shifted between a dove, a crane, and a maritime striped squirrel for most of her childhood. She favoured the squirrel and dove (incredibly mild animals) over the crane, which disappointed Madam Yu.  It’s one of the reasons Jin Zixuan never saw her as a potential match, her daemon too small and docile to match his almost constant lion daemon.
When Jiang Yanli was around fourteen Madam Yu took things with Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng too far one day, and Yanli saw it. Her daemon suddenly shifted into a bear, a form it had never taken up to that point, and jumped on Yu Ziyuan’s snake daemon. WWX and JC always remembered Yanli standing in the doorway, her expression placid while her huge bear daemon growled with absolute fury and menace. Everyone expected Yanli’s daemon to go back to its usual squirrel or dove form, but it never did. It remained a bear, and remained the biggest daemon of pretty much anyone in any of the sects.
I had already picked a crane as one of JYL’s potential daemons because of its connection to water and positive symbolism in China. Upon further (hopefully accurate) research, I saw that cranes depicted with lotuses in Chinese art symbolise purity and longevity, and I liked making her daemon a bear even more, because her daemon took that form to protect WWX and JC - years after her death, they both wondered if, had her daemon had taken crane form, maybe she wouldn’t have died. From what I found, “crane” is also a homophone for 合 hé “peace, harmony”, which is a quality Jiang Yanli had much of, and tried to inspire in others.
LXC I think its LXC’s hairpiece which always makes me think of deer antlers (even though it’s a dragon?), so that’s probably why I immediately thought of a stag for him. But stags are also very noble and refined looking animals which don’t tend towards violence, but also have horns for a reason. Obviously, like with LWJ, it’s a white stag because aesthetique. Upon further research, I discovered a (hopefully correct) source which says 鹿 lù (deer) is a homonym with 璐 lù (precious jade), and the character for deer is used within the character 丽 lì ‘beautiful; elegant’ - both fit LXC very well.
JGY Cats are sneaky little fuckers (I say this with love). The ultimate predator in small unassuming form. Many of the main Jin family have big cat daemons so this is kind of another smack in the face for JGY - so close to being a real part of the Jin family, but still kept apart from them - and something people like to bring up along with his mother. However, many Jins are also birds (including JGS), and cats prey on birds.
NHS I thought a fox was a bit on the nose. Also I like the way pangolin’s just drop and curl up in defence - it’s a viable form of protection, but to the outside appears cowardly. However, their scales are sharp and can cut predators who come after them. Also I didn’t want him to fit into any of his sect’s typical animals. Also also imagine how cute it would look being carried around everywhere by NHS because it’s too lazy to walk, absolutely adorable.
NMJ A wolf was what immediately came to mind for Nie Mingjue. Wolves are apparently sometimes associated with greed, self-interest, and lechery, but I think the pack elements and the carnivore/hunting nature of the wolf really suits NMJ and the Nie clan in general, so I decided to overlook that aspect (although I did briefly consider making JGS a wolf, but I like them as animals too much in real life to do that to them and also he doesn’t have a soul, so he doesn’t get a daemon).
WQ I always saw Wen Qing as some sort of hawk, I just think it suits her very well. The Chinese sparrowhawk is quite small and very beautiful. It has white, red and grey colours. They are good hunters and swift flyers. 
WN I knew I wanted Wen Ning to be some sort of dog because he’s very loyal, and also (angsty) when the Jins call the Wens dogs I wanted that to hurt even more. He’s very unusual for a Wen, none of the main sect have dog daemons - it is very much a thing that is specific to their branch of the Wen family. The mountain dog I picked for him is an endangered breed, which I also felt fitted WN well. From what I found, dogs symbolise watchful wisdom, honesty, and loyalty, which all fit Wen Ning. 
This was all perfect till I remembered WWX’s all-consuming fear of dogs. I decided to get round this by cheating and saying that for some reason daemons are different and he’s not scared of them (because they represent a part of someone’s soul, rather than being a real animal? I guess?? Please do not look too hard at this delicately constructed card tower) 
Angsty version: when Wen Ning becomes a fierce corpse he loses his daemon, another reason people are unsettled by him and another thing WWX feels guilty about.
LSZ I think Lan Sizhui was the hardest to pick. I couldn’t decide which way to go: should he follow a “Lan approved” daemon pattern; should he have a bird like Wen Qing and a lot of other Wens? Then I saw the Xiasi Quan and it’s white and fluffy and cute but it was also a hunting and a guard dog, which seemed right for him. And I liked that it gave LSZ and WN this one very tangible connection. It is also endangered.  However, I also liked a red panda and a badger for Lan Sizhui too. I really couldn’t decide between the three. I like them all, why is he the hardest to choose for? (I’m still not 100% happy with this, let me know if you have any alternative suggestions)
Again, please suspend your disbelief at the fact that WWX’s child has a dog daemon and he’s fine with this (it would have looked so cute as a little puppy running around the Burial Mounds though).
When he was younger his daemon liked to take on the forms of those closest to him. So you’d often see a bby marten running after WWX’s daemon, a tiny bird perched with Wen Qing’s sparrow-hawk, a puppy following Wen Ning’s dog around, and a tiny bby rabbit in Cloud Recesses. As he got older it shifted between the dog, a red panda, and a badger. (maybe I’ll just say his hasn’t settled yet and that’s why I can’t decide)
JL Jin Ling definitely also had a daemon which shifted because of a) his loved ones and b) his mood, and he hated it. As if his own explosive temper didn’t give him away enough, his daemon always showed his exact feelings. When he wanted nothing more than his mother to be there it would be a bear. When he was feeling defensive about his parents it would turn into a lion (this happens when he and WWX first meet and any time people talk about his parents’ deaths). When he was younger his daemon spent a lot of time as a cat and a bird, although different types to what his uncles had. 
Jin Ling’s daemon still hasn’t settled when WWX is resurrected, and he is absolutely mortified the one time it decides to turn into a beech marten like WWX’s. Eventually it will settle into a lion, and WWX will pretend to be grumpy that it didn’t choose a bear instead.
Angsty AUs:
Daemons are linked to golden cores Jiang Cheng loses his daemon along with his core. When Wei Wuxian’s core is removed it’s more like when daemons and humans are separated in the books. His daemon stays with him, but can move about freely - this is part of what causes WWX to rapidly destabilise, not just resentful energy. Jiang Cheng always feels weirdly aware of WWX’s daemon after that but doesn’t know why. WWX’s daemon is technically connected to JC too, and also finds this weird. JC also can’t work out why his daemon never came back with his golden core, and that loss is part of why he’s so angry and isolated.
The effect of trauma on Daemons Another angsty au is based on the idea that, if trauma can make your daemon settle early, then trauma can also make it change.
When Wei Wuxian is thrown into the Burial Mounds, he wishes so hard to be able to fly that his beech marten turns into a crow (because I do love a crow for him too). I kind of like the idea that after the Burial Mounds WWX’s daemon almost un-settles itself, and can change between a marten and a crow. This really freaks people out and is another reason people say he’s dangerous.
Similarly, after Wei Ying’s death and the Lan sect’s punishment, Lan Wangji wakes up to find his daemon has shifted from its hare to snow leopard form. In his soul, LWJ feels like if he had been less passive and actually stood with WWX then his soulmate would still be alive. His daemon changes from a more passive hare to the more aggressive snow leopard.
He’s criticised by the elders for it, but they shut up when his daemon flattens theirs, while LWJ’s face remains an impassive mask but his eyes promise murder. WWX is really sad when he comes back to see LWJ’s hare gone and blames himself for causing LWJ so much trauma his daemon changed. (personally if I were writing a Daemon AU this is what I would have happen, because I love LWJ with a snow leopard daemon - they symbolise bravery and martial ferocity, while rabbits are virtue and gentleness, and I feel like these two both accurately represent the two sides of LWJ. I really feel like LWJ has a huge shift in himself after WWX’s death which would be represented in his daemon. It also is, in a way, a return of a core part of himself which was lost after his mother’s death)
Sword/Instrument substitute Mixing Daemons with sword sprits - the animal becomes a physical representation of the spiritual tool. Some people could therefore have more than one daemon (for example, LWJ could have Bichen - his rabbit sword daemon - and Wangji - his snow leopard guqin daemon)
Angsty version: WWX actually does die in the burial mounds and Suibian, his beech martin, dies/changes into Chenqing, a raven/crow.
.・。.・゜✭・.・✫・゜・。.  .·。.·゜✭·.·✫·゜·。..・。.・゜✭・.・✫・゜・。. 
If you are reading this you have made it to the end of this post, well done.
 I wanted to make it shorter but I had too many ideas and wanted to explain my reasoning for my choices and decided just to put it all in one post rather than lots of little ones.
*Disclaimer: I know only the smallest amount of Chinese, and have taken all my information about imagery, word meanings, and homophones etc from web-sources, and so it is very possible I have made mistakes. Though I have, to the best of my abilities, attempted to check on the cultural/artistic meaning, if any, that certain animals have in Chinese culture, the internet lies and I can’t get any decent books on it atm as the libraries are closed, so I’m really sorry if there are errors and I hope people will forgive any mistakes or blunders I might have made. 
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porcupine-girl · 4 years
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Untamed Fic Rec List
Look, most of these are reasonably popular fics already, so if you’ve been in this fandom for a couple months you’ve likely read them. Which is not how I normally do rec lists, but I’m new enough to Untamed that I’m still reading through all the fics by authors I know from other fandoms plus ones that have been personally recced to me, so I haven’t made it into the deep dive of underappreciated fics that I normally like to rec.
It doesn’t help that one of these recs is 445K, so for like two weeks straight it was basically all I was reading.
BUT if, like me, you are rather new to this fandom and its fics, here are some good ones:
The Same Moon Shines Series by sami
This is the 445K behemoth, made up of 23 works, and is technically made up of three interrelated series. The first fic, which establishes the whole universe/multiverse, is 139K on its own. Basically, decades into the canon future, WWX invents time travel.
He goes back to being born, but is reborn with all his memories intact. And he fixes, like, fucking everything and it’s so, so fucking satisfying. Everything’s not perfect though - for example, he like lowkey (highkey?) traumatizes LXC by showing him his previous life via empathy and that has some consequences eventually. Featuring ace poly JC/LXC/WQ triad.
Then in a cracky subseries, appropriately called “ridiculous future bullshit”, we assume that the main six from this universe (WWX, LWJ, JC, WQ, LXC, JYL, & Lan Sizhui) all achieve immortality and find out what they’re up to in the modern day, where they’re revered in the Five Nations (this does a great job of staying in the canon world instead of ours) but of course white Western assholes do things like try and make a disney movie called Hanguang-Jun and the Yiling Patriarch where they marry LWJ off to a girl.
And then in a third subseries, which so far has only one WIP fic, we go back to the canon universe, find out that JC and LWJ were stuck there watching WWX disappear in his time machine array (so WWX actually split off into another universe, he didn’t rewind his own), and so they get into the array having no idea what it will do but wanting to chase down the asshole they love. And so a third universe is born, where they are both born with their memories but WWX is not. I absolutely love seeing how different their priorities are from WWX’s in terms of what they want to change in their new life.
(Also: This is technically a MDZS fic that usually goes with novel canon over show canon if there’s a discrepancy, so if like me you haven’t read the whole novel you might need to look up some plot points now and then.)
The Vermillion Ribbon by @unforth
AU where Wei WuXian was taken in by Wen Qing and Wen Ning’s parents instead of the Jiangs. LWJ (who is the POV character) is a super DUPER dick to him at first, like even moreso than in canon, but the speed with which he regrets his choices is breathtaking and extremely satisfying.
LWJ is a VERY unreliable narrator. He has absolutely no idea what is going on with himself or anyone else at any point in time. Eventually he at least becomes self-aware of this fact, and can at least go wait am I missing something? I think I’m missing several somethings but fuck if I know what. Wei WuXian not understanding this about him leads to some miscommunication, because WWX doesn’t get that LWJ needs absolutely everything spelled out to him in single-syllable words with crayon drawings and y’know, WWX isn’t going to be straightforward anytime he can pretend he’s TOTALLY FINE :D :D :D instead.
LWJ’s friendship with NHS is magical, and NHS in general gets 810% more opportunity to scheme and plot pre-time-of-NMJ’s-canonical-death than in canon and is honestly living his best life. It’s also valuable for LWJ to have a scheming friend because, aside from realizing he misjudged WWX, this is how he starts to figure out that he’s a dumbass who has no idea what is going on ever. But he can count on NHS to always be ten steps ahead, so it’s okay.
(ETA: I’m sorry, I made unforth feel like maybe LWJ was too dense, and no, he’s very much not stupid in general. Like, honestly the fact that he becomes so self-aware of the things he’s bad at, and does things like trust NHS to always understand the stuff he’s missing, makes him come off as very intelligent. It’s just in the specific realm of understanding anything that people say or do that isn’t 100% honest and straightforward that he is just entirely hopeless in a rather relatable way, and like I said, WWX’s go-to is hiding any and all pain so that is a bad combo.)
The Fire Lapping Up the Creek by notevenyou
This diverges from canon when WWX is on his way to Jin Ling’s one month celebration, but doesn’t bring Wen Ning along. So when Jin Zixun attacks it goes very poorly for him, poorly enough that Jin Zixuan thinks he’s dead and it’s reported back at Carp Tower as such. Sending LWJ into a dissociative state. He manages to break through to reality just long enough to find out that Jin Zixuan took WWX’s body back to the burial mounds and left it with Wen Qing, and to get on his sword and go directly there. Thankfully, it turns out that WWX is not dead, but only just barely so.
So LWJ stays there, because now that he spent some amount of time (he isn’t really sure if it was like five minutes or two hours, because dissociation) thinking WWX was dead he now knows that he should never, ever be anywhere but with WWX.
Honestly, it almost feels like a spoiler to say WWX doesn’t die, but there’s no major character death warning while there IS one for graphic violence so it’s not a chose not to warn either, so that’s technically not a spoiler. But things are touch-and-go for him for a very, very long time. And the romance is a slow burn with pining galore. And you get to see LWJ teaching A-Yuan to play the guqin, so like imagine being WWX and you wake up from almost dying to see that going on in your cave.
Velle: to will, to wish by @aerlalaith
This one is actually canon-compliant, and as it’s both quite a bit shorter and more straightforward, plot-wise, than the others, my writeup will be short but that doesn’t mean I loved it any less. Basically, it’s the process of LWJ deciding to adopt A-Yuan in the aftermath of WWX’s death. It starts just after he’s been beaten for turning against the other cultivators, and at first it’s mostly his grief and both physical and emotional pain. A-Yuan starts slipping in to visit him. and LWJ isn’t sure if he’s really okay with that at first.
Of course he becomes very okay with it, but the Lan elders and Lan Qiren and all aren’t just going to be like “ok sure you can barely walk you should def adopt a four-year-old of unclear origins who may or may not have something to do with your demonic dead boyfriend and the evil people he helped, that’s cool,” so it’s not that simple.
There’s a followup fic where, years later, LWJ chooses the courtesy name Sizhui and Xichen gives him shit for it.
save a sword, ride a socialist by sysrae / @fozmeadows
Continuing on my grand tour of Untamed fics by my fave writers from other fandoms, I get to enjoy having overlapped with foz on a third straight fandom which is just fabulous. I totally thought I wasn’t gonna read AUs and then this asshole comes along and writes AUs, which is not playing fair.
I especially love this because it’s modern day but much like ridiculous future bullshit it’s modern day in (more or less) a canonish world, not our world. So like, they fly on swords, but not long distances because it’s easier to take a train or drive rather than use up all that spiritual energy.
Lan Qiren and Jin Guangshan miss the old ways, though, and they think the best ancient tradition to bring back is arranged marriage! Because that will go over well with today’s youth. They try to make LWJ marry Mianmian but he’s like “um I’m gay” and LQ throws a hissy fit about that so Jin Zixuan (who is LWJ’s bestie and is fucking hilarious) hatches a plot for LWJ to cause LQ to stroke out by bringing WWX to Lan Xichen’s birthday party as his fake date.
But when LWJ and WWX meet up to talk this over, LWJ is instantly fucked because WWX has a small child with him and it turns out that this small child is the orphan he adopted. He doesn’t notice he’s fucked until a few days later, though, when WWX comes over for “kissing practice” and they fuck and he calls Jin Zixuan all “I think I caught a feel, what do?” and JZX is like idk, you’re a moron, don’t ask me to clean up your moron messes. And the next day LWJ buys a car seat.
Lan Wangji heard about Jack 110% Zimmermann and said “challenge accepted,” is what I’m saying here. And now I’ve written as much about this 33k fic as I did about the 445k, so I’ll shut up before I just recount the entire plot.
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tonyglowheart · 4 years
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Some thoughts on character naming conventions & cultural significance of name-shortening
I’m noticing a growing trend of people referring to characters from The Untamed by given name only (my theory is this is because of Netflix. Is it because of Netflix?), and while I’m starting to get more used to it and am also actively interrogating my own emotional reactions to it, I do want to provide some of my thoughts on cultural notes regarding naming conventions.
Point the first: Although in English-speaking culture(?)/American culture, naming characters by given-name-only may be the most neutral form of addressing a character, in Chinese, naming a character by full name (e.g. “Wei Wuxian,” “Lan Wangji”) would actually be the most neutral form of addressing a character/someone.
While you can call characters/people by given name only, this usually indicates usually a high level of personal familiarity (like Lan Xichen calling Lan Wangji by “Wangji” for example), or maybe a high level of disrespect/disregard (like in MDZS/CQL when characters refer to Wei Wuxian by his birth name “Wei Ying” as a sign of disrespect [e.g. we see Jin Ling do this, btw]).
Point the second: Additionally, and importantly, if a character’s given name is only one character, it would NOT tend to be called alone. I know Netflix has a habit of subbing people’s names as given-name-only, so then you get names like “Cheng” and “Ning” and “Qing”; however, in CN a single character name would not tend to be shortened alone. I’m not saying no one ever does this, but that more commonly, as a nickname/familiar form of address, something would be added to amend the single character. E.g. a “Xiao” (Little) or a “Lao” (Old, tho in this case not necessarily meaning the person is literally “old”), or “A-” as we see in canon (though I think Netflix also omits this :/), or “-er”, or doubling, etc.
One form we see in canon is “A-[x],” so e.g.: A-Yuan, and A-Ning (which Wen Qing calls Wen Ning), and A-Xian (which Jiang Yanli calls Wei Wuxian). (I think we may also see JYL call WWX “Xianxian”? so an example of doubling, too, though I’d say this version is more used “for kids” or more “cutesy” version)
In terms of name-shortening, “full-name neutral” is possibly why the prevalence in acronym shortening (the other may be the prevalence of danmei fandom on twitter [character limits]? and esp predating CQL growing bigger on tumblr? but this is anecdotal on my part, it’s also easier to type acronyms on a phone lol). Because acronyms preserves the whole name, essentially, within the structure. If you’re calling a character by given-name-only just as a way of shortening the name/for convenience, then imo you run into issues of imposing English/American naming conventions on Chinese characters, and that’s where I personally run into feeling like there’s possibly a respect issue at play towards the source culture, :’)
TL;DR : I would say “when in doubt, default to canon naming conventions,” except I think since Netflix does drop surnames in subs even though the characters are saying them, and puts in given-name-only when familial/honorific forms of address are used (like “Yanli” instead of Shijie), that might have set a certain Anglocentric/ Americentric precedent in people’s minds on the naming...
 In which case, I recommend “when in doubt, default to full names.” 
Now, I’m not saying you HAVE to refer to characters by full name only or else you’re a Bad Terrible Person, or that you are doing things The Wrong Way if you find given-name-only easier for you, nor am I saying you HAVE to use acronyms to shorten character names, (since yeah, that is an EN adaptation to pinyin also anyway), (and like, I can’t control what other people do lmao)
But I did want to provide some cultural notes for people who maybe don’t know or haven’t considered that there even would be cultural issues at play with naming conventions, and would (hopefully) like to learn more about & immerse more in the source culture instead of just going with their comfort zone, which...at worst ends up coming across as Americans/Anglophones imposing their culture on others without really taking the time and effort to respect the source culture
Edit: lol uh *suddenly remembers this thing* o yeah here’s a terminology reference someone wrote up that gives a lot of information on naming and relationship terms & forms of address
Edit 2: follow-up ask regarding use of acronyms
Another Not-quite Ask Response to an anon I got which I was going to go back to and answer “formally,” regarding name use and third person “internal” narration. (tl;dr, Chinese has all these third person self-referential pronouns/pronoun structures that I think ppl are much more likely to think or refer to themselves as, if they’re not just outright referring to themselves as “I” in terms of internal narration. imo third person narration, someone is much more likely to refer to themselves as 本人(”benren,” meaning vaguely “this person”) as a more general term, or any variation of these kinds of self-referential third-person forms of address, vs by name.) Which is to say.. I think it's a moot point as far as how it would translate, so it's not like "but how would a char refer to themselves?" rly helps. Most if not all Chinese media I've seen uses full name for narration, bc as I said, that's the most neutral form of address. If you wanted to "compromise" for English then ofc I can't stop you. But naming habits very quickly is becoming a "no brown m&ms" issue, of "does it seem likely you're trying to write respectfully, or just treat it like a China: Through the Looking Glass situation."
(under the cut if you want some more expansive thoughts/discussions)
[cut]
So. This is where I go a bit more stream-of-consciousness/a lot messy maybe, and also share some more personal feelings on this. uhh strap in if you plan to read through this I guess :’D
My reason for bringing this whole thing up is, in honestly, fueled by a quite visceral initial discomfort with seeing given-name-only forms of address in tumblr posts that keep cropping up, and especially single-character-only being bandied about all over the place. Honestly, seeing “””Ning””” and “””Cheng”””  and “”””Qing””””” etc give me similar *Kill Bill Sirens* feelings that the “””””Childe””””” translation for gong’zi that Tencent does gives me lol.
I’ve been in the process of interrogating also my own reactions of discomfort, and while some of it IS down to familiarity in form - in that I just wasn’t familiar with seeing given-name-only’s, and that I do kind of feel like I can accept it a bit more now that I’ve seen it around and gotten a bit more used to it - but another thing that I think became important to me was my reflections on how this reflects a sort of culture clash, with different cultural norms coming into play, and also how much this kind of hits home personally.
So one hand, you may say that for an English-speaking/Western audience, it’s perfectly valid for them to engage with the source media in English according to their familiar conventions, which is the given-name-only convention. However, as an Asian American, my first impulse on seeing a lot of given-name-only bandied about was that this was a form of address was too casual/presumptive and perhaps unintentionally disrespectful.
Within a sort of meta-Doylist perspective, I think it reads to me as odd because with fictional characters, an audience member wouldn’t necessarily HAVE a personal familiar relationship the way the characters within the media have with one another. You’re essentially a third-person observer on “someone” else’s life if we’re getting really meta-texual lol. It’s different than if you meet someone  in person and they/their friends introduce themselves as “Xiao’Ling” for example because their friends call them that. And a sort of example of where we DO get a familiar form of address as an introduction is with A-Jing, who is just introduced as A-Jing and is just A-Jing. (and ofc there’s an interesting cultural discussion to be had on her lack of family name and how that familiar form of address indicates her relative social status, too, since the idea that she’s family-less and is of relatively lower social status as a “blind” beggar and so more people would feel free to address her by a familiar form of address vs Lan Wangji who is the second son of a major clan and so it would be kind of insulting for people to be casually calling him “Wangji,” even)
Now, the specifics of arguing “how close are you with a character” is a point I’m willing to soften on, since like... this is quibbling something that I can’t really argue on or fully pin down to explain other than “it feels weird” (tho I was venting about some of my Kill Bill Sirens feeling with another Chinese friend and they mentioned “it’s disrespectful, isn’t it?” regarding given-name only and that kind of got me thinking), and getting into arguing “well you’re not as personally close with a fictional character to be allowed to call him by given name” is. not a kind of argument I ever want to be having lmao. and also I can see there being cases where, for example, you’re getting really emotional over a specific character and it doesn’t ping my radar - although for me, I think in these cases, I tend to default to birth names lol. Like when I’m especially emotional over Wei Wuxian, I start sobbing over Wei Ying, and I think I generally tend to call Lan Wangji as “Lan Zhan” anyway lol.
(Actually, no, I just tried calling a bunch of characters by given name only and it’s just weird to me to think about addressing characters by given name only, lol, it DOES feel too presumptive/familiar :’) it hits on uncanny-valley cultural notes to just do so casually D: this is like calling your...e.g your high school teacher by given name (like when a teacher is just Ms. [xx] but after you graduate they’re like you can call me [first name] but you just can’t?), like that just? doesn’t Work Like That? D: I think the only reason “Wangji” works for me is because Lan Xichen calls LWJ that, and it’s a cute moment, and I feel like I’m invoking LXC’s love for his brother when I do that :’) this. does get more into personal preference yeah but I do think it’s also tied into cultural concepts of respectful forms of address, especially across rank/age/level of familiarity)
But also I mean. this whole though process is a work in progress for me, too, in terms of me interrogating my own emotional reactions, and in terms of me trying not to cross over into “policing” how people engage in fandom. And like... being more honest with myself about it, yeah the acronym structure - which, although I am now more used to - is still an English-specific adaptation, and one which CAN be open to discussion/alternatives. And again, I’m not saying that you HAVE to use acronyms either, as that IS an English adaptation to pinyin anyway. But that I think there is good reason for it, and it’s not just something someone made up to personally target people or whatever.
But the other part where respect is brought up for me is a matter of respect for Chinese culture. Now, I do understand not everyone may be wanting to immerse within the source culture in that way. And I, with gritted teeth :’) say... FINE. because I can’t control what other people do ofc. But again for me, this hits home quite personally, because I DID grow up experiencing a lot of microaggressions with Asianness being dismissed as “weird” or “too foreign” or “too difficult to understand.” It’s the reason why Chinese immigrants and Chinese Americans have to have “English names” that we go by, because sometimes even the pinyin of our names are “too difficult” for people to want to try to pronounce.
And listen, I’m maybe more defensive of some of these cultural notes than a Chinese person in China would be, who may be charmed or amused by what to THEM would be “funny foreign habits”; but I’ve also been threatened more for my Asianness than a Chinese person in China would have, and I have also had to work harder to reclaim my heritage from a prevailing culture which is now more centered within my identity but which simultaneously works hard to erase my heritage from me, and at the same time also alienates me from truly “belonging” without me fighting for it. So... yeah when I did see people casually say “well this is what I think works for me,” I...on one hand want to be like “okay I understand and respect that,” as I recognize to be good fandom etiquette! but on the other hand it reminds me too much of Americans going, like, “this is too difficult, do you have an English name?”
where it feels more like a matter of people aren’t putting in the effort to learn a name that is foreign to them, aren’t putting in the RESPECT to learn a different culture and thinking it’s fine to just impose their own (like this does, for me, trip into the “mmmm cultural imperialism, hm? not cute” kind of territory :’) )
And I am aware that many people may NOT realize that there ARE cultural issues at play with the naming, and that some people (lmao like me) might be sensitive to some of this.
But like. I felt strongly about it lol, and at the very least, I wanted to try to provide some food for thought that people hopefully would take :’)
And ig sort of lastly, I am ofc open to discussion on this topic! I am, after all, a single Chinese American with my single Chinese American perspective on this specific cultural topic! But I do ask of you, if you find yourself reacting to this emotionally in some way, please try to sit with the emotions yourself for a bit? I mean I know I’ve been guilty of reacting emotionally, and reacting by speaking first before pausing a moment to process the emotions. But like I’m putting it out there already that this IS also an emotionally charged topic for me, and overlaps into emotionally-charged issues relating to cultural imperialism and my own experiences as Chinese American. So I ask that if you do have a specific emotional reaction, to please pause and let it distill a little before unleashing it on me :’) This is one of those *John Mulaney voice* things I’m sensitive about :’)
And also if you do use “given name only” this is not a personal attack on you, I am not saying you’re a horrible American cultural imperialist for doing so, nor am I saying you’re being maliciously thoughtless and disrespectful. (I’m also learning more and more that there are certain cultural things I’d taken for granted/had assumed has become more common concepts in English, such as “face,” which actually are still utterly foreign to some people.)
I am just personally tired but also opinionated to a fault and want to share my thoughts on where I’m coming from, culture-wise with this.
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