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megashadowdragon · 3 years

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coldhands identity is brave danny flint

Could Coldhands be Brave Danny Flint? It sounds crackpot, and very likely is, but the more I thought about it the more it appealed to me. I've done a quick search, one or two people seem to have floated this before but it's never had much in-depth analysis. This is my first meta, so please be gentle and C&C welcome.

The Gender Agenda To start with, I'll start with the elephant in the room - Danny Flint was a girl, Coldhands is male. Or is he? Gilly, Meera, and Bran all refer to him as male, but they have no idea who he is, so would see Night's Watch clothes and assume. He wears a scarf over his face, and while they can see his eyes and that his face is pale, it took Bran's gang a decent amount of time to work out he was a walking corpse, so I'm not sure I trust them to figure out niceties like gender. Leaf's "They killed him long ago" is more of a problem - she's a colleague, she would probably know. My best defence is that maybe Children of the Forest don't do gender in the same way as humans? This feels like a reach, but we have had another magical species with sexual fluidity leading to trouble with pronouns in the series. Otherwise, Leaf tends to hang out in the cave, Coldhands can't get in, maybe they're just not that close. Finally, the main person to ask - Coldhands his or her self. The only other post I could see on reddit about this theory had someone respond with the quote "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals. His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk", but I'd point out this is in third person and a generalization - "a man", not "me, Coldhands, the man".

Okay, now I've convinced everyone my theory is terrible, let's get into the meat of it.

Hands cold as stone This was what got me into this rabbit hole in the first place - House Flint's sigil is "A grey stone hand upon a white inverted pall on paly black and grey". A stone hand would be pretty cold, right? In point of fact, when we first met Coldhands, the final line of the chapter describes "fingers hard as stone." On top of that, the white and black background seems to fit the Night's Watch blacks, pale face, black hands, white snow, etc.

Who the hell else could it be? This has always been the weird thing about Coldhands for me. Honestly, there's a very good chance this is a non mystery mystery, he's a zombie Night's watch ranger riding an elk, do we really need a secret identity? However, "who is Coldhands?" is one of the most commonly asked questions in the fandom, so let's assume it's getting an answer. We know: a) night's watch member b) killed a long time ago, as reckoned by a 200 year old, c) not Benjen. There are essentially 3 historical periods where we know any specifics about the Night's Watch: 1) the long night/age of heroes, 2) Targaryen era, 3) recent history. If we work through these backwards, we can pretty much rule out the recent era for not meeting the criteria of "killed a long time ago". The Targaryen era didn't have much Night's Watch drama, a few kings sent to the wall at Aegon's conquest, Raymun Redbeard's invasion is wall related but the whole point of that story is that the Night's Watch failed to really get involved... the only strong contender from this period is a mysterious magical Targaryen bastard who went to the wall and went missing... but he's the other mysterious good zombie wandering around up north. The long night has a lot of Night's Watch focus, but it was 10,000 years ago. Allowing for this being in-universe exaggeration, it's still ~2,000 years ago, and if Coldhands were that old, I'm not sure he'd be in elk-riding mutineer-killing form, or at least not look passably human to Bran and co. This rules out specific timeline characters, which leaves more folkloric characters like Danny Flint, who isn't associated to any one point in time. There's a song, and she's treated as a well-known tale, which implies a fairly long time, but overall could be whenever. This works for any of the folkloric Night's Watch characters, but the Rat King is already otherwise occupied with a different cannibalistic pseudo immortality, leaving Mad Axe, who does have the massacring fellow brothers down pat, but doesn't feel thematically right to me. This section really grew in the writing, but TL;DR - assuming Coldhands is someone we've heard of before, no specific historical figures seem to match up chronologically, leaving figures from folk tales and songs, which there are only so many of.

Mutineer Massacre For a character we've all obsessed over so much, it's easy to forget how little we've seen of Coldhands. His role in the story has effectively been "transport Sam and Gilly to the wall, transport Bran and co to Bloodraven, massacre the Night's Watch mutineers". Hold up, one of those things is not like the others. During his quest to get Bran to Bloodraven, to awake the messiah and save the world, Coldhands takes a break and makes a detour to kill the Night's Watch Mutineers from Crasters. This is explicitly noted to be something they slow down for, when time is critical. Admittedly, it secures the party some delicious Long Pork when supplies are low, but even in aDwD it seems like there are other ways to get meat than to hunt humans, besides which he kills not one but five mutineers. He claims it is because the mutineers are following them, but Meera points out they've been circling for days - it seems Coldhands deliberately sought the mutineers out. The brutality of the kills also suggests more than utilitarian pragmatism - there are entrails slung through branches and severed heads! All of this to say, Coldhands is deliberately shown as both a member of the Night's Watch, and willing/going out of his way to punish Night's Watch brothers who break their vows and harm their fellow brothers, something Danny Flint might take personally. Basically, it's a classic exploitation movie with an elk-riding zombie as the wronged woman hunting down wrongdoers. Someone call Tarantino to direct this.

A True Night's Watch One of the big themes GRRM loves is the idea that outsiders to an institution can be the truest embodiment of that institution - Dunk and Brienne are the truest Knights, Davos is the truest lord, the Manderlys are the most loyal northerners. Coldhands already seems to tie into this - the Night's Watch are tireless defenders from the Others and their Wights, so ironically the staunchest ranger is undead as well. It would only emphasise this theme if this ultimate Night's Watch ranger was someone who was barred from entry, had to sneak in, and was murdered by their brothers for not belonging. There also seems to be a thematic tie in that Danny Flint had to essentially infiltrate the Night's Watch and keep her cover in hostile terrain, much like Coldhands in the Others controlled north.

Bonding over being murdered by your brothers Coldhands has so far been very much one of Bran's cast, but it's worth noting characters can switch storylines, and we have someone else in the North who can soon relate to being a back-from-the-dead Night's Watchman fighting the Others - I'm hardly the first to note the Coldhands/Jon parallels, but Coldhands being another character who was murdered by the Night's Watch due to their conservatism and hatred of outsiders would add another layer.

Miscellany A couple of quotes I found while researching for this: “Did Mance ever sing of Brave Danny Flint?” “Not as I recall. Who was he?” (ADWD Jon XII) - Tormund and Jon talking, Tormund mistaking Danny Flint for a man, this feels like one of those throw-away lines GRRM likes to include to make a little double meaning once the truth is out, or just seeding the idea of mistaking Danny Flint for a man. “The ranger wore the black of the Night’s Watch, but what if he was not a man at all?" (ADWD Bran I) - again, I could see GRRM giggling as he typed that if this theory were true.

Conclusion Honestly, there is every chance this is absolute nonsense, and I've just lost it waiting for TWoW. I tend to lean towards Coldhands not having a big identity reveal, he's an undead ranger co-opted by Bloodraven and that's enough. However, if Coldhands is to have an identity reveal, I think Danny Flint deserves consideration: there aren't that many viable candidates, her story is emotionally intense enough and has been referred to often enough that a casual fan could be expected to go "oh!" instead of "...let me google that", and it would fit with existing themes of the story. The angle of Jon parallels even gives an opening for the reveal to be natural and facilitate character and thematic arcs, which is what I look for in a theory.

comment on reddit

Yeah, the Flint (of Flint's Finger) sigil literally being a Cold Hand is what sold me on this when I started looking into it. There's also some other intriguing textual stuff about it...

The weird thing about Danny Flint is that she is only mentioned three times in all of ASOIAF. Three! Bran recounts her tale in Bran IV, ASOS; Theon hears Wyman Manderly demand her song in The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD; and Jon discusses her tale with Tormund in Jon XII, ADWD.

This was kind of shocking to me. Danny Flint is a pretty recognizable name to, I’d figure, the majority of attentive readers. I thought she must have been mentioned before the third book, at least, but… nope. Her tale is first introduced to us in Bran IV, ASOS, the Nightfort chapter… Oh, what’s that? Wait, isn’t that… the very same Nightfort chapter where we first hear about Coldhands? (Well, no, actually, he appears at the end of Samwell III before that, but this is the first chapter where he is identified as Coldhands.) Chronologically, Sam meets Coldhands, Bran thinks about Danny Flint, and then Sam introduces Bran to Coldhands, in fairly quick succession.

So it seems GRRM came up with Danny Flint and Coldhands around the exact same time. Interesting. Danny Flint is then not mentioned again until ADWD, when the Coldhands mystery is developed further. Double interesting.

Also, the Bran chapter directly preceding the Nightfort chapter– our first introduction to Danny Flint– is the one where Meera tells him the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, another tale of a northern warrior woman dressing as a man and hiding her face in service of some greater goal. Stretch? Maybe.

And why would Coldhands' face be covered at all if there WASN'T some big reveal upcoming? What utility would that have? That scarf clearly seems like a setup for SOMETHING. He doesn't need it for warmth. He's likely hiding a face that would make him recognizable to Bran/Meera/Jojen (and the readers), but died long ago... the only way that reveal could work without a ton of laborious exposition is if he took off the scarf and it was obviously a 'female' face, making it obviously Danny. It also seems likely Coldhands will interact with at least Bran and Meera again, both of whom are somewhat connected to Danny Flint’s story– Bran via his love of stories and legends, and Meera via the breaking of gender roles. So there's thematic levels to it as well.

source www . reddit . com/r/asoiaf/comments/llwm8m/coldhands_identity_spoilers_extended/

#asoiaf #A Song of Ice and Fire #asoiaf theories #asoiaf theory #asoiaf coldhands #danny flint

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ferreandhiscat · 5 years

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Top 5 fave Arya moments (in book and/or show)? Same question for Tormund too.

Top five Arya moments, again, a weird amalgamation of both the book and the show.

1. getting on a boat and going to Bravos. none of the other characters do that, just....leave. I mean I guess Tyrion does later but he’s also a grown adult. But there’s something about she just...leaft?

2. killing the Freys. “Jon snow avenged the red wedding” he very did not. Jon snow almost got everyone killed. Arya though? Arya avenged the red wedding. and “tell them Winter came for House Frey” I did a post about that last night but I love that line SO much and what it does to both the words “winter is coming” and to House Stark.

3. burying Yoren. I’m not sure why this strikes me as so important. But when Arya drags her friends back to bury Yoren I always cry?

4. “A Girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I’m going home” I don’t love the way the TV show dealt this part of the story but I love how they ended it. I don’t think it’ll be the same ending in the book, but I think d&d had to show restraint to not have Arya kill Jaqen H’ghar but I think that that restraint made the story strong. Arya isn’t just an assassin she has an agenda.

Tormund so all my favorite Tormund moments come from the TV show bc hes....hot in the TV show.

1. Coming to protect Jon’s body. Tormund is.....he’s very alone When Jon dies hes stuck between a rock and a hard place. much like Jon he’s been thrust into a leadership position he wasn’t really ready for, and with Jon dead, he might live to see his people killed, depending on who the next Lord Commander is. So he has to make one last stand to protect the one man who was willing to try and save him and his people.

2. okay actually i lied I love the bit in the book when he tells Mance “you gave Sytr his style now give me mine” and Mance has to “ Tall-talker, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice. And here also Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts.” Like buddy try to be more extra I dare you

3. ”What kind of god would have a pecker that small?” This is, seriously just one of the funniest lines in the show. And it comes at a time where tension is running high

4. also his interaction with Davos at East Watch by the Sea Tormund: Isn’t your job to talk him out of stupid fucking ideas like this?Davos: I’ve been failing at that job of late and then Davos: I’ll be staying behind, I’m a liablity out there as you well knowTormund: you are. really just this whole scene is hilarious “How many queens are there. . . and you need to convince the one with dragons or the one who fucks her brother?”

I could only come up with four really good ones for each of them ://

#sapphicsansas

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fedonciadale · 6 years

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do you think we will see a scene where jon defends sansa from daenerys ?, in my opinion I do not think it will happen, I feel that jon will continue to be or pretending to be the servant of daenerys and let her get away with it to keep her happy, and I'm annoyed because I think Sansa is going to defend Jon next season from the lords. what bothers me about this situation is that many jon fans have expressed that sansa should support and defend jon, but when it is jon's turn they say that it

(2) is necessary, and in truth I sometimes have the impression, that because It is their favorite character, they tend to look for excuses to defend all his actions, and they are not impartial.

Dear nonny,

I do think that Jon and Sansa have each others’ back at the moment. Jon is securing weapons against the WW, while Sansa is managing the political affairs the preparations, and the supplies. They are a great team - regardless of shipper goggles.

You know, I could see both things happening: I could see Jon losing his cool, when Da€nerys attacks or insults Sansa, and I could see him gritting his teeth and playing along with it. I must say that I would prefer the first option, but that I wouldn’t be absolutely mad about the second either. I mean a lot of the theory about ‘political Jon’ is about that we think that Jon’s agenda since season 1 has been the fight against the WW and the protection of the North. If this is still is his agenda in season 8, then it would only be consistent if he stays ‘political Jon’ and does not jump in to protect Sansa.

That’s how I see it, but I am a fan of Jon Snow. I would argue though, that there is a difference between saying: I can understand why he does that, and actually defending the action as if it is a morally good action. I can be a fan of Jon and yet admit that not everything he did in the books and the show is something that is morally good. In the books he swapped Gilly’s baby for Mance’s son and pressed Gilly into playing along: That was not very nice, although his aim was to save both babies. So, although I understand why he did what he did, I hated what he did to Gilly. I also hated that he killed Ollie on the show. Ollie was a child ffs. While Aliser Thorne was an adult mutineer, Ollie was a child. Legally, Ollie was a mutineer as well, but I think Jon should have searched for another solution, even if the law was technically on his side. So, I do not condone this behaviour. That does not mean that I suddenly am not a Jon fan anymore.

You know, this is what bugs me about many Da€nerys fans. They go out of their way, not only to say they understand Da€nerys’ actions, but also defending them as if they were morally good actions. And I just don’t buy that.... You know, crucifying the masters in a fit of rage because innocent children were killed is sort of relatable, but to call it justice is an euphemism and simply not true. Burning the Tarlys for not bending the knee might be useful to let people see how serious she is about this business of bending the knee. But that does not make it a good action, nor is it a very good excuse. “I killed a few, so that the rest were so frightened, I had not to kill more.”...

I digress.... As I see it, Jon has deeper feelings for Sansa, and that might lead him to lose his temper, if Da€nerys goes against Sansa, but at the same time, he still thinks Sansa is his sister and therefore he would not want for anybody to guess his feelings, least of all Da€nerys. He might also think that Sansa is capable of defending herself.

So, I would actually “defend” his actions in the case he grits his teeth and allows Da€nerys to insult Sansa. Jon and Sansa are in a different situation and I think that Sansa - who had to lie to survive - would even understand if Jon does not defend her, because he doesn’t want to endanger the alliance with Da€nerys. I would probably point out, that Jon might have searched for other solutions, but I think it would be consistend with ‘political Jon’ and ‘Jon tortured by his love for Sansa’, if he shuts his mouth. Understanding in this case, does not mean liking, and I don’t have to like every action my favourite character does for him to be still my favourite character.

Although I’m pretty sure, that Ramsay will be eaten by his own dogs in the books as well, I don’t like that Sansa didn’t give him a trial. That does not mean that I can’t relate that she wanted to kill her rapist.

So, I think we should try to differentiate more between being a fan of a character and agreeing to everything a character does. These are not the same things. Understanding a character’s motivations is not the same as applauding their actions.

I wish more people in this fandom would be able to say: This character is my favourite. Having a favourite can mean that you relate, that you try to understand. I might also mean, that you actively look for reasons that make the actions of your fave understandable and relatable. It does not mean, that you have to claim that every action your fave does is a morally good action. Imho, many Da€nerys stans just don’t get this.

Understandable/relatable is not the same as morally good. There is a limit though. To me there are some actions that make me despise a character.... And this is as legit as liking a character although he/she did shady things. I can still think a character is a wonderful villain though. Cersei is a wonderful villain, and I like her. That doesn’t meant I want her to see on top at the and, nor does it mean I would like her if I met her in real life.

Imho, it would be an entirely different situation, if Da€nerys threatens Sansa’s life, even if only in words. Jon would never allow that, again regardless of shipper goggles. If he would do that, I could not defend him and I would probably start to dislike him. Your limit to not liking Jon might be a little bit different than mine. That doesn’t make it less legit. We are not obliged to understand every action of the characters. Understandable also does not mean that you or I in particular should understand it and that people can scream at you for not understanding or relating.

Thanks for the ask and thanks for your patience!

#anon ask #Jon Snow #Sansa Stark #Jonsa #Politcal Jon theory #Anti-Jonerys #sort of #Anti-Daenerys #just to be safe #Anti stanning

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turtle-paced · 6 years

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Revisiting Chapters: Melisandre, ADWD

Requested by the excellent @pretenderoftheeast. Hoping to do the chapter justice, because it is a very cool chapter.

The story so far...

Following Stannis’ departure from the Wall to fight the Ironborn, Melisandre elects to stay behind to represent Team Dragonstone and gain the trust of Lord Commander -

- wait, hang on, Melisandre? We’ve got her PoV now?

Melisandre

Indeed we do have her PoV now, and so a lot of this chapter is devoted to establishing her interiority and her relationships - not just with the people she interacts with over the course of the chapter, but with Stannis and Davos. I know people who were surprised by this, but she turns out to be entirely sincere. She is doing her best to try and save the world and honestly believes Stannis is the man of her prophecies. This is her agenda. She was not lying to Davos, way back in ACoK. This is what she believes.

Melisandre, we learn, lives in fear, and her faith is what keeps her going.

Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.

Her fires are a bulwark against the darkness, and it’s not clear from this how much is mystical and how much is down to Melisandre’s personal psychology. This only grows more painful as we find out just what she’s afraid of. There’s the forces of darkness, yes:

Dawn. Another day is given us, R’hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. […] And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night.

But more than that, she fears her past.

Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame.

One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

It’s not a lot of detail, but it certainly tells us that Melisandre started out as a slave, and whatever happened to her then still gives her nightmares now. This detail expands on the matter somewhat:

Danger to her own person was the first thing she had learned to see, back when she was still half a child, a slave girl bound for life to the great red temple. It was still the first thing she looked for whenever she gazed into a fire.

What circumstances lead to that being her first lesson and her strongest ingrained habit, I wonder? Probably not a little Melony being tucked safely into bed at night.

That’s the past, though, and here and now Melisandre’s got a pretty impressive skillset. On top of the explicit and extensive display of real magical power involved in her scrying, we get first-hand knowledge of how Melisandre magically disguised Mance Rayder and covered it up. Shadow and suggestion, woven around the Lord of Bones’ bone outfit and an iron fetter with a ruby in it.

In an unsettling detail, Mance describes the magic as taking a toll on him.

“I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t.”

Creepy. Then there’s the way Melisandre doesn’t need sleep or food like most people, thanks to R’hllor-granted abilities. And why not believe this fervently, when her faith has given her bona fide magic, taken her from slave to a king’s trusted advisor, and relieved her from most of her need to rest and eat (thereby relieving her of most of her nightmares)?

She genuinely cares for Stannis. It’s clear to see how she prioritises knowledge of him, desperately and repeatedly looking for signs of him in her fires, as well as her concern for his progress on campaign. She thinks of him as her king. She’s also clear-eyed about his mistrustful and unbelieving nature. In a chapter showing how she attempts to win over Jon Snow, she says she did pretty much the same thing with Stannis in the beginning. Though the “back in the beginning” tag would indicate that their relationship has since changed - as would her internal comment that without Stannis around, she’s not using her bed much.

One of the most heartwarming sections of the chapter, for me, is the reveal that Melisandre also respects Davos a good deal. Completely without prompting, she asks to have Devan Seaworth as her own attendant, since it’s safer at the Wall and she knows Davos has already had four sons killed in Stannis’ service. This is not a hostage situation.

Devan was the fifthborn and safer here with her than at the king’s side. Lord Davos would not thank her for it, no more than the boy himself, but it seemed to her that Seaworth had suffered enough grief.

She admires Davos’ loyalty, even though that exact loyalty drove him to make an attempt on her life. Melisandre’s a woman who values principle and keeping faith, which isn’t surprising given how she lives her own life. As for Devan, Melisandre quite likes him, describing him as smart and able. We see later in the chapter that he keeps her informed about matters around him, in bringing her attention to the short confrontation between Bowen Marsh and the disguised Mance Rayder.

We also quickly realise that Melisandre is hyper-aware of the importance of appearances. First, we see her internally criticise Jon for his lack of attention to such.

It was never wise for a ruler to eschew the trappings of power, for power itself flows in no small measure from such trappings.

She believes this applies just as much to sorcerers as it does to politicians. Fittingly, we see how she uses those appearances to bolster her own power. To supplement her own magic, she uses chemistry, keeping various fire-activated powders in hidden pockets in her sleeves. She keeps her own guards with her all the time. And she’s definitely pleased when the radiant heat off her body starts making the Wall’s ice melt around her, because Jon will notice that sign of her power. Even when she explains her magic, as she explains the glamour she cast on Mance, she deliberately holds back how difficult it was for her to work that magic, even at the Wall.

That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

That too doesn’t say much nice about Melisandre’s childhood. That sounds like someone who’s feared sorcerers speaking.

Active Prophecy

A decent chunk of the action this chapter is in Melisandre seeking out prophecy and acting on what she sees. From what she tells us, this is fairly standard procedure for red priests and priestesses. (We see another red priest do similar in Victarion’s chapters, this book.) We also learn that through a warning.

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent.

Oh, Mel. This gets well and truly hammered in.

There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

Like, absolutely crunched in. Her first and biggest mistake is kept well and truly in view through the narrative, not just in the form of “Stannis is not the prophesied saviour,” but in putting forward a likely alternative. Mel misses it all.

There are a couple of visions she focuses on, so I’ll do the same. She’s focusing on short-term here, the better to achieve immediate ends. Let’s go through them.

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.

This one’s still ambiguous, but you know, I get the worst feeling it’s not going to stay that way.

She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

This is later given more detail, as

“The girl,” she said. “A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow’s sister.” Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly.

Alys Karstark, running from her uncles.

A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

Bloodraven and Bran. No, they’re not the enemy, but they’re not R’hllorites either. The thousand eyes is a nice touch.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

The second doom of Hardhome.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

Jon’s fate of assassination and resurrection. Probably how he gets resurrected with his mind intact, too, by taking a mental break in Ghost.

Then, after seeing Melisandre actively search out prophecy, we see her act on it as well. As she says, there’s no point to prophecy without subsequent action on that prophecy. There are three significant examples in this chapter.

First, the “grey girl on a dying horse.” Melisandre’s goal in saving this girl is explicit. She (and Mance) need Jon’s trust, and she hits on saving Jon’s sister for him as a means to do it. However, she undertakes this mission with the belief that the girl she saw running to Jon for protection from a marriage must be Arya Stark. Who else could it be? How many young women could possibly be seeking out Jon Snow to protect them from being married off against their will? While this assumption might seem to be a safe one, we do see Melisandre ventures beyond what she can confirm in her interpretations, and prepares decisive action on this basis. As it turns out, there’s more than one young woman in the North who’s running from a forced marriage, and the one Melisandre saw isn’t Arya. It’s not even the girl forced to pretend she’s Arya.

Second, the eyeless heads weeping blood. This prophecy comes true in this chapter, right before the eyes of the characters. This, Melisandre tries to leverage for trust, but there are limits. There’s progress in her ongoing goal of trying to get Jon to trust her, however.

Beneath the iron grating of a murder hole Snow broke the silence, as she had known he would. “What of the other six?”

“I have not seen them,” Melisandre said.

“Will you look?”

“Of course, my lord.”

Better than nothing, especially when Jon follows it up with an additional question and the third significant bit of acting-on-prophecy.

“If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

This is a long way past mistaking Alys for Arya. This is Melisandre thinking “eh, I don’t know if it’s Eastwatch,” and telling Jon “definitely Eastwatch.” This is dangerous, should Jon believe her and the aforementioned heaviest blow not fall at Eastwatch. This looks like frankly bad practice to me, and an error made in pursuit of Jon’s trust. For all Melisandre says she’s aware of the pitfalls of acting on prophecy, this is the second time in the chapter she’s overextended her interpretations, while at the same time seeking to have others rely on those interpretations.

Watching the Watchmen (and the wildlings)

Melisandre also provides us with a useful outsider PoV on the Watch and the Free Folk. Until now, all we’ve seen of the conflict between the two is from the PoV of Watchmen Jon Snow and Sam Tarly, and what critique we get of Jon is expressed through Sam’s personal disillusionment with him.

This chapter provides the true inception point for a politically significant rescue mission, through the eyes of a character who doesn’t care a whole lot for the politics involved. Melisandre wants Jon to trust her. She will make use of Mance to do it. For his part, Mance is still in it for the Free Folk - his cause goes down better with Jon if he’s just saved Jon’s sister. We also see Mance’s critique of how Jon’s handling the Free Folk - assuming that Tormund will end up on top, because Jon likes and respects Tormund. That in turn points to a broader failure in Jon’s political skills, in that he has trouble empathising with people he dislikes and cannot adopt their perspective even for planning purposes.

As for Jon himself, what Mel gets off him is some impressively icy reserve that goes a long way to explaining why a lot of people don’t warm up to him easily. Cold grey eyes, aura of mistrust like black fog, things like that. She’s not after his affections (which she considers a lost cause), only his trust, and she thinks she can use the same in with him as she did with Stannis - like Stannis, Jon thinks he will be able to use her. She goes further with the Stannis-Jon comparison, noting that the similarity of growing up in the shadow of more charismatic elder brothers produced two similar men. Neither of whom are given to the sort of religious worship that is Melisandre’s rather literal bread and butter.

Mel pretty much tunes Mance out, though, since she believes the Free Folk are doomed. She’s not entirely trusting of him, even at one point wondering whether her decision to spare him was the right one. As with the grey girl on the dying horse, Mance is only useful to her insomuch as he helps her gain Jon’s cooperation.

Bowen Marsh’s paranoia is on full display in this chapter, so we can see that it’s not just Jon and a case of personality clash. Mance informs Melisandre of a short confrontation he had with Marsh in the dining hall:

“The Old Pomegranate thought that I was spying on him and announced that he would not suffer murderers listening to their councils.”

Jon’s observations of a rigid, fearful Marsh and Mance’s account of this incident support each other. Melisandre sees Marsh’s paranoia for herself when she goes out to see the heads on spikes, then sees Marsh attempt recriminations.

Bowen Marsh’s cheeks were red with cold. “We should never have sent out rangers.”

That said, Melisandre’s a camera as far as Bowen Marsh’s reactions are concerned, according them little importance. That’s the drawback of that more impartial PoV - she doesn’t know the men around Jon, that’s demonstrable just from comparing the narrative around the Watchmen (bare facts) to the narrative around her own guards (judgments about their capabilities) - and so doesn’t pick up real time the dangers she’s already foreseen. Picking up the progress in Marsh’s thinking can only be done in conjunction with later Jon chapters.

Chapter Function

In terms of plot, we get two key bits of advancement here.

First, the eyeless heads and the pieces being moved towards Jon’s assassination. Melisandre sees it in her fires at the start of the chapter, only to miss the real-time hints. Bowen Marsh I’ve already talked about. There’s another here too. Keep an eye on Alf of Runnymudd, who was so intensely distressed by Garth’s death. There’s enough here to infer a relationship between Alf and Garth, I think. On top of Alf’s reactions, Jon’s instructions (to have Alf taken inside for a stiff drink and a lie-down) don’t look to me like orders meant for a man who lost a colleague. We’ll see Alf again, as one of the men accompanying Bowen Marsh before the mutiny. Here’s his motivation.

Second, as mentioned before, we see the start of the mission to rescue Arya from Winterfell. The eyeless heads were just enough to convince Jon Snow that Melisandre had seen his sister. Interestingly, the decision to agree is shown from outside Jon’s head, from the PoV of someone who is consciously exploiting technicalities and loopholes to procure his agreement, in turn meant to procure his trust.

“I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god.” She pointed with a pale finger. “There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light ... and me.”

She even uses his own words about the laws of men ending at the Wall. Melisandre’s been working towards making this pitch for a while.

In terms of character, this is the first time we’ve had Melisandre’s PoV. The fact that we have her perspective at all tells us that what she knows won’t break the plot, as Varys’ PoV would, or Littlefinger’s, or Cersei’s back in AGoT, etc etc. So, we get a crash course in her backstory, her motivations, and her relationships, before moving onto the action above. We see her methods and where they’re fatally flawed. And we see her powers.

All this established, it gives GRRM an alternative PoV at the Wall to that of Jon, equipped with magical powers, and without the burden of having to do the personal exposition in the middle of something else. Just in case something bad happens. Just in case we need to see something important and magical happening at the Wall, and for whatever reason Jon’s not available…

Miscellany

“Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.” I think Melisandre may have spotted Dany’s dragons.

Included in Melisandre’s guards are men whom Stannis had castrated for raping Free Folk women. Rape doesn’t go unpunished in every army in the setting.

Keep in mind the effects of a glamour both Melisandre and Mance mention, when reading any theories about such-and-such is really such-and-such under a glamour. Even at the Wall, where her magic is exponentially stronger, Melisandre barely carried off the illusion of burning Mance. And as mentioned above, being under a glamour for a matter of weeks takes its psychological toll on Mance too, due to the sorcerous artefact on his wrist all the time.

Clothing Porn

None, unless you count Melisandre’s robe of many pockets.

Food Porn

Fresh brown bread with butter. Bean and bacon soup.

Next three chapters

Davos IV, ADWD - Jaime VIII, ASoS - Sansa VII, ASoS

If there’s a chapter you want analysed, send me an ask, and I’ll add it to the list!

#ASoIaF #revisiting chapters #cw: violence #cw: rape mention #melisandre #jon snow #the night's watch #a dance with dragons

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ladystarks · 6 years

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Sorry if this seems rude since it's not meant to be, but why do you ship book jonerys but not the show jonerys? Could that ever change?

Don’t worry, that’s not a rude question at all!

When season 7 began, I was actually really excited about the possibility of show Jonerys happening. I wasn’t crazy about Jon and Dany’s individual storylines at that point–if you follow my blog, you’ll know how frustrated I’ve been with the show’s mis-characterization of those two. But I was optimistic, especially since at the beginning it really looked like Jon had the interests of the North in mind. At their first meeting I was really, really happy…Jon and Dany were presented as two strong monarchs, each with their own agendas. They didn’t trust each other, with good reason. After their first episode together I was SO into it.

And then the show ruined it.

I never saw Jon staring longingly at Dany, though each character seemed to point it out to the audience, maybe because they wanted you to see a connection that…wasn’t really there? But whatever, not every pairing has amazing chemistry, and the lack of it didn’t matter so much to me. What I couldn’t get over was the writing, how D&D ruined the characters to fit them into the “good queen” and “dumb, noble hero” roles, erasing the clear flaws Jon and Daenerys have in the books.

Jon shouldn’t have offered her the North, full stop. He wasn’t being prideful, when she gives him that line he said to Mance a few seasons back. He was doing what is best for his country, which is his job as a monarch, a job he isn’t convinced Dany would do. Dany in the books wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) have gone after the guys on the wight hunt, especially not without naming an heir! That’s not good ruling! If she died, like she almost did, who would have saved Westeros from the Others, or from Cersei?

I like these characters. A lot, especially their book versions. And I still ship jonerys in the books. I think there’s a good possibility for it, and I know George will do a better job developing the relationship. But this season especially just really ruined the show characters for me.

As for if I can ship the show version in the future…Maybe? If they made Jon less stupid (since David and Dan have actually said he’s dumb…which book Jon Snow is not), and made Dany have to work for the North. If Jon and Dany’s political agendas clashed, if you have to see them work their differences out and compromise. But with only six episodes left, I don’t think that’s possible, especially given how little effort Game of Thrones has put into developing their characters since, well, season 5. Until then, here’s hoping

#I want to be clear that I DO ship jonerys so pls don't come for me--I'm just frustrated with the show pushing it at us inorganically imo #Jon snow #daenerys targaryen #jonerys #game of thrones #asoiaf #ask #I mean you guys are free to ask me about my opinions about my ships #I'm a multishipper at heart so I'm always down to talk about it #and I like these recent compare book to show stuff bc I have Opinions about them #so again pls don't come for me like last time i voiced an opinion on dany's show arc...It's literally every show arc I have a problem with #not just hers

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occupyvenus · 7 years

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The good, the bad, the ugly, the incredibly STUPID and the thin silver lining

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SPOILERS FOR LEAKED EPISODE 6 UNDER THE CUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU ARE ON MOBILE, APPROACH WITH CAUTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME. FUCK ME.

Why didn’t Dickhead & Douchebag just break into my house, take a giant dump in my living room and then ask me to pay for it? Why don’t Dipshit & Dumbass just put a bullet in my head and end my misery???? WHAT THE UNHOLY FUCK

Okay, that’s not really enough, but just to get this out of the way. Let’s start:

THE GOOD

Finally a dragon died. Only real good thing in the episode. Undead Ice-Dragon is kinda cool, I’ll admit that.

Some of the interactions of the let’s-go-die-beyond-the-wall-like-a-bunch-of-fucking-idiots-squad were funny? - interesting? I guess?

The differences between Tyrion and the D are getting more profound. He’ll turn on her in season 8. Thank god. Fuck god for saving all the interesting plotlines for later.

The undead ice bear was pretty sweet as well.

Jon looking hot in his furs.

THE BAD

“Bad” is too weak a word for all the bullshit that happened. All of that was moved to the “incredibly stupid” section. It can only be used for the things that weren’t on screen:

No Bran. Couldn’t he simply end this amazingly-fucking-idiotic-piece-of-shit-ooc feud between his sisters? Both Sansa and Arya know about his visions, why isn’t one of them just going to him for some info? But that would make too much sense, so D&D cut Bran from the plot, hoping we are all to stupid to notice.

No Cersei, no Jaime, no Euron. (Yes, that’s bad. The Cersei-stuff is the only thing that was kinda thrilling this season.)

Plotlines that were completely forgotten: Euron having Yara, Grey Worm and the Unsullied in Casterly Rock, as stated above no Bran, no Theon. Establishing a plot point just to let lie unused for the rest of the season is bad writing.

THE UGLY

Jon didn’t choose to go to Kings Landing. Blondie just put him on a boat while he was knocked out. Not happy about it happening, but at least he didn’t ditch WF for the stupid stupid dragon pit meeting by choice.

The Wight hunt was as close to filler as you can get in a show like this. Half the episode was Benjen showing up was completely useless, if Jon had just hopped on the dragon with anyone else he wouldn’t have been left behind. No major human character died. (Thoros is not as important as say Tormund).

BERIC FUCKING DONDARRION TEASING A FUCKING BOSS-FIGHT WITH THE KNIGHT KING ONLY FOR IT NOT TO HAPPEN. LIKE FUCK YOU TOO, BERIC. FUCK YOU.

THE INCREDIBLY STUPID

I know they are playing loose with the timeline BUT HOW LONG WAS THE SUICIDE SQUAD WAITING FOR THE D IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT FROZEN LAKE? A couple of days, right? Gendry getting back to Eastwatch, a raven flying to Dragonstone, the D getting her dragons and flying beyond the Wall. How long did they camp there?

Speaking of that: If they Army of the dead is close enough to the wall, that Gendry can sprint back there in one go.... Shouldn’t they just breach the wall within the next 24 hours tops?

How did they fight off the Wights for so long? They only way to kill them is with fire, there is no reason for them to stop moving when cut down with a normal blade.

Again the story beat with Benjen showing up was so fucking useless. It didn’t accomplish anything (Jon is super dead, btw. The fucker fell into icecold water, he like froze to death. Believe me it happened, even if they didn’t show that. Don’t let the show fool you.) other than killing his character in a completely senseless way. What? There’s no time to get on the horse? Just like there was no time for Jon to get on the fucking dragon?

Fuck, if one of those bright minds would have thought about taking a bow and some dragonglass-arrow heads with them, they could have killed the night king and the rest of the White Walkers right then and there. But no. That would have taken some logical thinking and planning.

Beric teasing a fucking showdown with the Night King. Yeah Beric tell out

Why can’t they bring Thoros back to Eastwatch when they haven’t even come that far??? I mean what the fuck???

Under the assumption that there is no twist involved: WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING TO ARYA? LIKE WHAT THE FUCK? I don’t really know what else to say about this...

Rant under the assumption that there is no twist involved: I was this close to throwing up, like I was seriously physically sick over Jon being all “D*ny, My queen, they will if they see you for what you really are” uugggghhhh .... *kotz* so eine elendige scheiße. Fuck. ...

Please keep reading the next section because those two “plots” are so extremely stupid I can’t believe they are actually really happening the way it seems right now.

THE THIN SILVER LINING

Still not sure if I’m buying Jon’s “feelings” for the D. Nothing we saw from Kit’s performance so far (especially last episode) build up to that. Plus, Tormund reminding him how many people died because of Mance’s stubbornness. Jon didn’t give two shits about the dragons last episode, there is no reason for him to be that heartbroken now. If his targ-blood was supposed to give him an instant connection to those fucking ugly fire-breathing lizards he could have just answered “yes, they are beautiful” last episode. But he didn’t. If he was supposed to be super in love with the D, he could have turned around when leaving. But he didn’t, quite contrary they emphasised that by Jorah turning around. Nothing about Jon so far suggested that he actually has any kind of serious feelings for her. They didn’t write in a single scene where both of them bonded as people. Jon was still refusing to kneel last episode, the only two things that could have changed his minds: 1. Tormund talking shit about Mance. 2. witnessing how effective the D’s dragons are against the WW. Still holding out hope for Jon playing her to get her help. It doesn’t make any sense otherwise (though would that stop Dickhead&Douchebag ???) Plus, Beric doubling down on “we are not fighting for a king/queen on a chair, we are fighting for life against death” and Jon doubling down on his former nights watch vows of shielding the realms of men ... makes it hard to believe that Jon would suddenly decide to serve “his queen” .Uuuughhhh..... I can’t believe I had to hear that with my own to ears. Can I sue Dickhead&Douchebag for compensation for my mental and emotional pain? His behaviour towards the D after waking up, taking her hand, calling her his queen, appearing heartbroken about Viserion’s death, TAKING THE FUCKING BLAME FOR THIS MISSION WHEN HE ONLY WENT BECAUSE THE D REFUSED TO HELP HIM BEFORE, praising her, etc is so over the top, standing in such a vast contrast to his behaviour the previous episodes, it’s hard to take it as genuine. It’s so fucking cheesy, I never thought I would ever hear something like that out of Jon's mouth. If they had taken it only a nudge down I might be ready to buy it ... but like this??? I’m crossing my finger that Jon is only saying what the D wants to hear. Why would he call her “D*ny” ??? Seriously why? They never addressed each other on a first-name-basis. He hasn’t called her anything but “Your Grace” until now. They could have easily written in a scene where the D tells him “you don’t have to call me your grace”, for example after the dragon-petting, to make it more believable. Jon first declines, but now makes good on that offer, going a step farther and calling her by a nickname. This came out of nowhere for Jon (the D had been making hearteyes at him, but the other way around? Naah.), it makes absolutely no sense. I’ll say it again: Season 7 j0nerys can be described with two words: Obvious and superficial. It smells of red herring, it still does, because other than the hard-core-shippers the audience had no time or reason to actually get emotionally involved in this relationship. There was no “human moment” between them so far, none that didn’t end with their “kneel!” “no,fuck you” dilemma.

If this amazingly-fucking-stupid-useless-piece-of-shit-ooc starkbowl is a trick to end LF, Sansa doesn’t know about it. Arya is so ooc and insufferable right now, it only makes sense if she (and maybe Bran) came up with this convoluted plan to get one over LF somehow. Why and How I don’t know, but it would be a nice enough twist to justify this giant turd of a plot. Maybe to get LF to feel safe, believing that Sansa has no other choice but to rely on him? Still holding out hope, because Arya just can’t be that stupid (THE LAST THING SHE SAW OF SANSA WAS HER PLEADING FOR THEIR FATHER’S LIFE BEING RESTRAINED BY THE KINGSGUARD AND FAINTING AFTER THEY CUT OFF THEIR FATHER'S HEAD). But all those interactions make me believe that at least Sansa doesn’t know about the plan. I hope, like really hope, that this will be resolved that way. Arya will kill LF next episode, revealing that she was playing LF and Sansa (he’s always following you around, I couldn’t risk him noticing something, I had to leave you in the dark) with a tender, lovely sister moment where apologizes for all the shit she said, saying that she doesn’t hold Sansa responsible for their father's death. I swear to all the goods, if that was just Arya, without a hidden agenda, I’m rooting for her to die on the show (book!Arya would never be like this. never). Her character is dead to me if that really is what she thinks and how she’s feelings.

To sum this up: The Wight Hunt was the most stupid thing ever. If both Jon and Arya are truly thinking and feeling how they are show to be .... I will lay my two favourite book characters to rest. I want all of them to die. I hope the White Walkers win and kill every single living thing in Westeros. FUck D&D. Seriously, fuck them. You can tell that they only meant to have 7 seasons, but then decided to stretch the last one, write in some senseless, useless bullshit and then cut it in half.

Unless they are turning a lot of this around in s8, grrm should be given the right to cut of their fucking, incompetent heads for ruining his life’s work.

There’s probably more, but for now I’ll leave you with this.

#e6 leaks

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thestagnantearth-audiodrama-blog · 7 years

Text

Tribute for Manchester

So, I wrote a tribute thing? Maybe? I don’t know... this whole Manchester thing is awful, and the fact that they targeted children of all things - one of the victims was an eight year old girl, Saffie Rose Roussos. I was lucky in that everyone I know who went made it back okay, but many weren’t.

But the worst part? Children are dead and people are trying to push political agendas. This is a time for mourning, for grief, for processing, couldn’t people have just given them a single day?

Anyway, I wrote a tribute-ish-poem-thing. I had some stuff I wanted to get off my chest I guess? Saffie and all the other people affected deserved better, and this is my way of saying that. (I don’t know, this is a mess...)

Twenty-three Miles Away

Last night I made stuffed peppers for my Grandma, Green flesh, Crispy where it counted, But also soft, ‘Melt in your mouth’, she told me.

Twenty-three miles away

That guy I sat next to all through High School is in the arena Is near the bombs Why would anyone want to hurt him? He always smiled The only person who always smiled in

My town where no one knows yet

My mum gets home from her shift at the hospital, I log on to Twitter I see the trend It must be some other Manchester, in America perhaps because It’s not here it’s not

Twenty-three miles away

Manchester bands together, Takes in the visitors The injured The children Strong, industrial, because has there ever been a Manc who’s not?

In my town where no one slept last night

Morning comes. The sun peeks out from behind mountains of hot grey clouds, And the girl who lives around the corner isn’t waiting at the bus stop She’s at home Because she wasn’t the night before She was

Twenty-three miles away

Where the day starts The sky clears The roads are full People’s minds buzz because Where are those people from the pictures? Where are the lists of the lost that can make thoughts still? Where is the name You know the one We know in

My town where we remember

We’ve been here before,

Manchester’s been here before Lost children before, Been stared at before, My Mum insists on driving me to college, We drive past the memorials that prove that

Twenty-three miles away

They’ll make it through Every time They’ll remember Saffie Georgina The countless unidentified, They’ll remember and it’ll make them stronger

Because if terrorists think they’re tough? Well, they don’t know many Mancs.

#Manchester #Tribute #Writing #Poem #personal #not AD or TSE related

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alanafsmith · 6 years

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Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today

Justices sit in Belfast for first time, as human rights barrister predicts case outcome for Legal Cheek

The Supreme Court will hear one of the most headline-grabbing human rights cases of recent history today, and from the city the events of the case took place in, Belfast. Lee v Ashers, the so-called gay cake case, has polarised opinion but Doughty Street Chambers barrister Jonathan Cooper OBE tells Legal Cheek its outcome will be a win for equality.

At the centre of this case is Ashers, a seven-shop bakery business in Belfast whose name derives from Genesis 49:20: “Bread from Asher shall be rich, and he shall yield royal dainties.”

Image credit: Ashers Baking Co

The married Christian couple at Ashers’ helm, the McArthurs, in May 2014 received an order for a cake bearing the slogan ‘Support gay marriage’. This request was made by gay rights activist Gareth Lee, who wanted the cake to mark the end of ‘Northern Ireland Anti-homophobic Week’. Gay couples cannot legally marry in Belfast.

Days later, Ashers phoned Lee and cancelled the order because the bakery is a “Christian business”, much to Lee’s upset. Lee, who is a member of QueerSpace, an LGBT advocacy group, said it wasn’t right a “business can choose to serve me depending on its views of my sexual orientation, religion or politics”. The bakery says the order was cancelled because of the message, not because Lee is gay.

UKSC is sitting in Belfast this week, hearing two Northern Irish appeal cases. The Court will also give judgment in a Northern Irish case that was heard in London last year. This is only the second time that the Court has sat outside London. Watch online https://t.co/mdyl0sDV9m pic.twitter.com/XRNLG42PW6

— UK Supreme Court (@UKSupremeCourt) April 30, 2018

Lee, backed by the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, sued Ashers, claiming he’d suffered discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and on the grounds of his political opinion. In 2014, a district judge said the bakery’s actions were direct discrimination.

Ashers, which has been supported by The Christian Institute throughout the case, appealed to the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal and, in 2016, lost.

The 2018 Chambers Most List

The Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Declan Morgan, said in his judgment: “The fact that a baker provides a cake for a particular team or portrays witches on a Halloween cake does not indicate any support for either.”

The bakers lost their appeal in the #gaycake row today, but was this the correct decision?

— Legal Cheek (@legalcheek) October 24, 2016

Now, following a reference from the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, it’s time for the Supreme Court to have its say. While the case has divided opinion (see the poll above) human rights specialist Cooper thinks it will be a hat-trick for Lee. He tells Legal Cheek:

“Lee was demeaned by Ashers bakery. His dignity was denied. We live in a rich and diverse society. If Ashers want to be part of that wider community they have to welcome everyone and provide their services without judgment. Good for Lee for standing up to this Goliath armed only with law, justice and equality. He will win.”

While Cooper predicts Lee will win, David Scoffield QC, Sarah Crowther QC and Professor Christopher McCrudden from Queen’s University Belfast will be trying to steer the court onto Ashers’ side. Robin Allen QC and Tom Royston will appear for the respondent, Lee.

The case will be heard by Ladies Hale and Black and Lords Mance, Kerr and Hodge in the Inns of Court Library at the Royal Courts of Justice. There will be almost 60 seats and six wheelchair spaces available for members of the public who’d like to watch proceedings first-hand, as well as an overflow space that can accommodate around 40 people.

Lee v Ashers is the second case the five justices are hearing during their trip to Northern Ireland.

The five justices yesterday heard arguments in the case of Mclaughlin, about whether Northern Ireland’s benefits system for widowed parents is incompatible with human rights law because it does not cover non-married couples.

The Westminster court’s short trip to Belfast follows a June 2017 stint in Edinburgh, where the justices heard cases on sham marriages, prison sentences and more. Cardiff is expected to be next on the agenda, the court hoping to remind the public it’s a UK court and not a London court.

The gay cake hearing is expected to begin at 10:30am today and will last two days.

The post Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today appeared first on Legal Cheek.

from All About Law https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/05/lady-hale-and-supreme-court-colleagues-to-hear-gay-cake-case-today/

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fayeburnsus · 6 years

Text

Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today

Justices sit in Belfast for first time, as human rights barrister predicts case outcome for Legal Cheek

At the centre of this case is Ashers, a seven-shop bakery business in Belfast whose name derives from Genesis 49:20: “Bread from Asher shall be rich, and he shall yield royal dainties.”

Image credit: Ashers Baking Co

— UK Supreme Court (@UKSupremeCourt) April 30, 2018

Ashers, which has been supported by The Christian Institute throughout the case, appealed to the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal and, in 2016, lost.

The 2018 Chambers Most List

The bakers lost their appeal in the #gaycake row today, but was this the correct decision?

— Legal Cheek (@legalcheek) October 24, 2016

Lee v Ashers is the second case the five justices are hearing during their trip to Northern Ireland.

The gay cake hearing is expected to begin at 10:30am today and will last two days.

The post Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today appeared first on Legal Cheek.

from Legal News And Updates https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/05/lady-hale-and-supreme-court-colleagues-to-hear-gay-cake-case-today/

0 notes

davidchanus · 6 years

Text

Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today

Justices sit in Belfast for first time, as human rights barrister predicts case outcome for Legal Cheek

At the centre of this case is Ashers, a seven-shop bakery business in Belfast whose name derives from Genesis 49:20: “Bread from Asher shall be rich, and he shall yield royal dainties.”

Image credit: Ashers Baking Co

— UK Supreme Court (@UKSupremeCourt) April 30, 2018

Ashers, which has been supported by The Christian Institute throughout the case, appealed to the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal and, in 2016, lost.

The 2018 Chambers Most List

The bakers lost their appeal in the #gaycake row today, but was this the correct decision?

— Legal Cheek (@legalcheek) October 24, 2016

Lee v Ashers is the second case the five justices are hearing during their trip to Northern Ireland.

The gay cake hearing is expected to begin at 10:30am today and will last two days.

The post Lady Hale and Supreme Court colleagues to hear ‘gay cake’ case today appeared first on Legal Cheek.

from Legal News https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/05/lady-hale-and-supreme-court-colleagues-to-hear-gay-cake-case-today/

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brokendownbrown · 6 years

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Regret the day I discovered alcohol as self-liberation, cuz really it was a prison.

there's so much to be said about the nature of the beast that shuts down your brain in sequential order, that renders consent impossible and makes so many bad things happen to your body. there's so much to be said for the pressures we face growing up that are unrealistic to meet. the internalized stigma around our bodies and the weird pressure that creates within as we internalize the violence that caused us the harm in our childhood and we continue to injure ourselves in adolescence.

to think that sex wasn't for me, that I was an alien, to think that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. for me not to be able to understand what that fundamental thing was, to not be able to get what was happening with me. its a cruel thing to have a child immigrate and then encourage them not to take advantage of resources that are available in the community. to be raised in a world where America wasn't form me and to be given friends who at least on surface cared about me, and showed me an incredible 17th birthday, at least I thought, but I'm so conflicted because it was so chock full of substances, the same substances that took vivek's life at 24. in college where I was constantly feeling like a monster. a layover from high school where I never went to parties and even if I was invited would always feel left out. I think people didn't want to challenge my visible orthodoxy even if it was begging for it. I was screaming for saving and no-one felt obliged. and so I kinda waifed out of school, just amid w weed smoke and beer cans, and loop pedals, and isolation. there I wrote the beginnings of what would become the discography of my life of which most seems lost. but still you start over, and over. eventually you get to a point where you've collected enough that you don't necessarily find yourself going through old archives that you made because the life you lived at the time was just too harmful to recollect. [pause] I understand that when my brain was off and I was trying to battle my demons I was in the company of people who were chasing the dragon but not necessarily for the reasons that I was. its a difficult matter to try to navigate and I really just need to continue to be honest, like my friends suggest. I think there's nooks and crannies in my mind that need to be explored yet and my friends demand better from me. so that's what I'll do. [pause] I guess I'm left with the harm that this person experienced, and I have to give them space to express that. if I don't then I'm not like doing my part, or following my friends advice, and really thats all I have in this stage. why would my friends offer advice if I wasn't going to follow it. [pause] This is a part of my being that is hard to access. I guess tears are coming out and I don't want people who've experienced harm to be lying in my wake. its a difficult matter to navigate but I'm getting good advice and I'd do well to follow it. [pause] I wish I didn't have this sense of romance when it came to drinking, like this james Bond-esque super-hero in a suit in the 70's with guns and explosions and girls. why is this like fueling my romance of what it is to drink. well dressed chavs with smarmy charismatic sneers pasted on their faces with wild eyes and hair blowing in the wind, and a cold glow about them. a sense of danger and freedom. a stubbly chin and immaculate fingernails and dapper dress interpreted through chav aesthetic. [pause] all of this and more seems to run through mind, like the whimsical joy of carrying a beer on the train in the UK and being OK. the freedom and sexiness of it all. but in reality I think about how unsexy being too drunk is. how terrible it can feel to be weighed down by whisky, to have the shades drawn mentally and medically have parts of your brain literally de-activting as per the want of alcohol to manifest. [pause] this grandiose life that wasn't for me, as an immigrant, and a kid with a super religious family, who'd never approve of partying. the knowledge of doing exactly what you weren't supposed to be doing was its own reward, a stab back at the family that would constantly torture you all day with all sorts of clothing potions that you'd never wear, all kinds of smarmy remarks about your body, asking you to weigh yourself on the scales, asking you to change your posture, asking you to change your diet. this always would fuck with me and contribute to a sense of two terrible things. [pause] me and my pal vivek would pain the town red and it was grand, like all the visions of radness that had plagued my pre-teen visions of awesome were manifesting at the age of 19. I was the badass id always dreamed to be, and it nearly killed me. I literally woke up in the ER. vivek, he went out in a body bag. so destructive was our dream. now I talk about liberation and its just weird to think that libation is more of a prison and this is almost a slogan but the truth is damning. damn it. I just wish that I wasn't sold this golden vision of substance abuse as a fast track to badassery. I never smoked a cigarette outside of a few chance parties, and hated it every time. weed never stuck. neither did any other drug. it was always alcohol for me. this weird like, sexification of a substance that was in all likelihood a turnoff the whole time. [pause] and now I guess I have a conversation pending with a person whose experienced harm due to drinking and thats going to be a day of reckoning for sure. I'm being given the harsh truth of things and id expect nothing less from my friends and partners. it is what it is, its nothing to sneeze at and I need to step my game here. I need to center their concerns. they need to know that I hear them. [pause] I grew up around bro's. like I was a chav growing up, also a grammar school kid, over in the UK. a northerner, a manc, a blackburnian, a Lancastrian. we'd wear our uniforms and say our prayers. and thats part of a tradition of schools of that nature going back hundreds of years. it was an old world thing. we were raised to love soccer. that was just the way of it. there were no bones about it, you were there, you were playing the game, you loved the game. it was also a city phenomenon, the blackburn rovers, a team that used to be badass when I was a kid but now don't even qualify for the main league. [pause] soccer was a way for me to continue a part of my culture as an immigrant who otherwise had no place to practice my accent, or any other trapping of my britishness. and then white adult comedians have the audacity to come to me and mock the state of my ability to express my internalized and still remembered Britishness as a sign of my ... [pause] its a lot to delve into. its super painful for me to talk about the way I was harmed by midwest public space to the degree that I had to self censure my own accent in order to find any escape from the harm that was being visited upon me daily by taking up space as a british, identifiably british person with religious garb of a faith they misidentified daily, another thing that I ended up leaving behind to step away from the harm coming my way. [pause] sometimes I wonder where does it end, like this weird tapestry of harm that I've internalized, the pain and the trauma, I go through my narrative and my head spins, and its hard for me to ground myself. but still, here I am all the same. [pause] what can anyone do anyway, given the world. I think about my gender and how thats buried in there somewhere, how I'm an immigrant and how thats kinda elusive for me to understand, how like... so many things. like the difficulty I have with mascara, and the few times I've worn a dress, how they've turned into jokes amongst friends. [pause] my body is a problem for me as I... like... you know, am not necessarily drawn to the standard male stuff with regards to fashion despite my swarthy appearance, and in saying that I feel like its racist to use those words. but I've spoken so few times about all this I have a lot of blunderousness in vocab to overcome. my family used to shame my body, my clothing choice, my posture, my body shape, despite being for many years the sole source of all nutrition for me. straight from my mothers kitchen to my stomach, to my body, to their eyes, their lips, and to my shame, the pain, the harm, the trauma. [pause] and I think about the boy from daycare, when I was a pre-teen, I think about the contact we made, their hand on my cheek, the electricity I felt. I think about my old neighbor, how we were close, very close, and how I missed that, and maybe they never felt the same, and maybe thats why they avoided me in years since. there have always been boys, although I'm not running after every boy I see. I have a type, and when it strikes me, it does. [pause] I'm about to do something really difficult and crazy, and I think it might work, but I am not going to pretend like I have everything figured out, I dont. I'll suck before I do better. [pause] but before all that I need to have this conversation with this person whose experienced harm. it was a surprise, a horrible one, but I have reached out and let them know I'm down to speak, and they seem down too. who knows what the right move is from there. but its important to recognize the harm that went down. and I don't know whats going to happen but it needs to and thats the main thing. on the phone he [their friend] told me to center their trauma over my ego. I'm already there trust me. but sure, feel free to say so. [pause] callouts and callins are triggering to me especially when they occur in this city because they've in my experience been used to fuel racist agendas that never get addressed, because of the power dynamics at play. but in this case I feel like maybe I can go through this process without being too worried about that.

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