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janiedean · 3 months

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I read your metas on why you think GRRM always meant for Bran to be KITN, not King of the 7K as per what he told Benioff and Weiss during their decades-long intimate working relationship on the show adaptation and I have to say I disagree lol. I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.' I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

Jon's a chosen one deconstruction because once he finds out about his parentage, it's not going to be a good thing that gives him a renewed sense of self like in the thousands of other chosen one fantasy arcs. It will be a devastating revelation for him and cause a very negative identity crisis. Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son? Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

Also, Jon is not AA, it is Dany. The thing is.....that's not a good thing lol. The AA prophecy is basically prophesizing the coming of Khal Stalin, not a savior lmao. That's the twist and the double edge sword with prophecies that is so very Martin. The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

I'm uuuuh, gonna try and reply to this as briefly as I can but like with the premise that everyone can agree or disagree with anything and text interpretation can't be set in stone until like the entire thing is over... in order

I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.'

anon I don't wanna sound rude but.... they lit set jon up to kill the night king and then made arya of all ppl do it NONSENSICALLY just to make ppl surprised, they literally shat all over the entire text since S2 if not S1 already, just the robb storyline shows they didn't understand anything about the point of the red wedding which they said they WANTED to adapt and they basically made shit up since s4 onwards without anything making literal sense including making c*rsei the ultimate boss when there is no shred of text evidence she's that important and grrm is pissed with the ending so like... I can 100% think that both of them didn't gaf about what grrm had to say and just understood what they wanted to, also because we're talking abt the ppl who made stannis go agamemnon on shireen because they hated his ass when if shireen dies like that no way it's stannis ordering it by any shred of textual sense so I absolutely will say dnd didn't gaf about what grrm said and threw their legacy in the trash, that because.... everyone thought the finale was trash and they haven't had a gig like that since bc no one wants them after got, with good reason, so like ppl can say that because there is nothing dnd have done as showrunners that shows they gaf about the og text, end of story

I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

except the jc endgame is obviously not the book endgame, lit no one's endgame except imvho jon's (hahaha) and possibly tyrion/davos is the actual book endgame and I'd like everyone to remember there's no shred of textual evidence rickon doesn't die in the books but anyway like... sorry but dnd not wanting to put jon on the IT for shock value (which is obvious since everyone expected it) and not giving bran kitn to give it to sansa so ppl who wanted her to be queen would be happy makes absolute sense to me, also like... again I'm not gonna go over it again bc you said you read the meta but: bran is a deconstructed version of a kingly arthurian archetype which by himself means that he has to become king while being disabled/in virtue of having lost his legs so like sorry but bran being king is absolutely in the text but no way it makes sense it's 7k since he's directly tied to his land and its magic same as the fisher king so......

I agree and I wrote a longass meta about jon being a chosen one deconstruction but being AA/his inheritance absolutely does not rule out it being a deconstruction imvho

Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son?

howland reed was there when he was born and lyanna could have told him and ned they were married, also bran can lit travel in time and prove it/see it happen, but even if he's not legitimate wrt rhaegar it doesn't matter because in the book he's legitimate wrt robb's will so he's gonna get kitn title at some point even just for that but like... point is if howland reed corroborates it and he gets a pet dragon or smth and no one has reasons to disagree esp because they'll need to kill zombies whether r/l were married doesn't matter at all

Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

we can't know about wrt grrm publishing something else or not but again: howland reed knows and he's still around and kicking and there is no reason for people to not make it known especially when it comes out and they have to treat with dany, also the show conflated young griff with both jon and cersei and jon connington with jorah and daenerys which makes no sense whatsoever so like that argument holds zero water bc they didn't know what they were doing and it shows

anon the second maester aemon said on page AA is daenerys out loud it went out of the window, the way asoiaf prophecies are structured everyone who's rumored to be X by other people/themselves before it actually happens won't be that, and jon only ever was deemed a candidate by a vision melisandre had... which she immediately discarded bc she didn't understand what the hell her own god was telling her so sorry but I don't agree and it's not gonna happen

The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

anon I don't even disagree with all of this but:

i do not think that in any way shape or form jon is not AA - there is no way he's not, he's lit the only one who actually came back to life in the show if we wanna show truth and there's no other character who lit resurrected and no one else will so there's that, he died according to the prophecy and no one in text would ever put a cent on AA being him, like.,........ what we know is not what they do and for westeros jon snow is the least likely candidate soooo like sorry but I don't think it makes sense that anyone else is AA, you can think it's dany but idt there's a chance in hell

I think the evil is already there and it's zombies, like... ik the show made it look like the long night was nothing but it's the actual ultimate big bad so there's no need for AA to be another evil, rhaegar would have misunderstood the og prophecy well enough as it is without getting that far

jon being the chosen one and AA would still make his life hell

idt dany is written in the book as an authoritarian tyrant and idt it's where she's headed and I'm saying it as someone who doesn't gaf about dany and doesn't care either way but the show version was just ridiculous and nothing in the text says she's headed there whatsoever

I also agree this fandom cannibalizing itself over who is AA is ridiculous... because it's jon and there's no reason to further argue over that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

bran can absolutely be the best ruler for a broken realm,..... the north, which has been mauled and will be further mauled by the zombies, and it makes no sense he is 7k anyway given his background and stuff, again you can disagree with it as you want but idt anything that happened in the show except an extremely selected amount of things which are absolutely out of context has a chance in hell of happening in the books and from the way grrm reacted to the finale it seems obvious to me, then... again you can agree or disagree with me but I wrote so much meta on the topic I honestly feel like I'd be rehashing myself over and over if I went about it again but like

of course everyone believes in their own interpretation but there's no way I'm gonna be swayed by any argument agains kitn!bran and 7k!jon who then abdicates and goes to the wildlings by anything that's not grrm publishing ados and writing differently, godspeed and that's mvho ;)

#ask post #janie replies #anonymous #queue of the beam #guys like i get it but idt i can be swayed by any argument #ive thought about this for years #it's my ultimate thing to say so until i see grrm publishing differently idt i'm gonna go back on it #anti-cersei lannister #anti-jaime x cersei

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torchwood-99 · 2 years

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I think something antis really struggle to comprehend about Jaime being treated with a kindness by the fandom that Cersei isn’t, is that despite his cruel actions, Jaime has treated others with kindness too. Cersei hasn’t. Jaime’s got goodness in him that people want to see win out over his flaws. Cersei’s just rotten to the core.

Same book Jaime is protecting the lowborn Pia from rape, Cersei is stringing up the lowborn Blue Bard and torturing him.

Fans are kinder to Jaime than they are to Cersei? Yeah, because Jaime’s a kinder person. Cersei isn’t really giving fans anything to work with in that department.

#ASOIAF #A Song of Ice and Fire #Jaime Lannister #anti-cersei lannister

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norringtondeservestheworld · 5 months

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can't believe it's canon that in the last season Jaime was chilling with his brother then Brienne entered and Jaime jumped on his feet murmuring my lady like a Jane Austen's hero and Tyrion was like damn bro, someone is smitten, isn't it?

#braime #jaime x brienne #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #anti twincest #anti lannincest #anti jaime x cersei #game of thrones #got #tyrion's face is hilarious lmao #one of the few scenes from the last season that has rights #nikolaj coster waldau #peter dinklage

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spacerockfloater · 20 days

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Cersei Lannister & Rhaenyra Targaryen:

Are forced to marry someone they don’t love, so they find solace in the arms of a family member and commit incest

Seduce members of the Royal Guard

Have their husbands murdered because they didn’t like them

Have three bastard kids

Commit atrocities to claim the Iron Throne

Betray their allies when they feel threatened

Rule with fire and blood

Live in constant paranoia so they murder innocent servants whom they believe will betray them, even if said betrayal would be a direct consequence of the way they treat their subjects

Are hated by the people

and lets us not forget the -

But no, please go ahead and tell me all about how Rhaenyra is this feminist icon who has the divine right to rule over hundreds of thousands of people because her daddy said so, therefore if I don’t support her I’m a misogynist.

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2rats1gogh · 25 days

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“Jace, Luke and Joffrey weren’t usurpers, Corlys named them his heirs!”

Okay but Robert Baratheon also named Joffrey his heir, because he thought he was his son. But that doesn’t make Joffrey any less of an usurper, does it? Pretty much anyone who has seen the show considers Joffrey an usurper, because everybody fucking knows he has no claim to the throne.

#anti rhaenyra targaryen #anti rhaenyra stans #anti rhaenyra #anti team black #anti team black stans #hotd #house of the dragon #asoiaf #fire and blood #game of thrones #joffrey baratheon #cersei lannister #anti lucerys strong #anti lucerys velaryon

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imfromthemiddlekingdom · 23 days

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I don’t understand the fandoms love for Daemon, by all rights he should be as hated as Joffrey was. Not only did he do almost everything Joffrey did, he also did worse. Even Tywin wouldn’t hold a candle to his cruelty. I understand liking a villainous character, I do too with Cersei and Tywin, but I’ve never went out of my way to whitewash their characters. I love them because they are villainous and practically irredeemable, if team black stans liked Daemon for his villainous actions before and during the Dance of Dragons I wouldn’t have any problems with it. But the fact that they go out of their way to defend him killing Rhea Royce because “he was forced into a marriage he didn’t like!!!!” As if she wasn’t too. And the fact that they defend him sending Blood and Cheese to psychologically torture Haelena and kill Jaehaerys due to “a son for a son it’s only right” when they despise Alicents moment of madness when her son was denied justice, makes me want to hurl.

It’s alright to like villainous characters, it doesn’t make you a bad person if you like them. But you know what makes you a moronic person? Whitewashing everything that makes a character compelling because you want to like them without seeming like a ‘bad person’. Your opinion on a character does not determine your own morality, it doesn’t make you better or worse than someone who hates them. But what it does, when you erase their entire identity as a rouge to make them more palatable to you, is make you seem moronic, stupid, and lacking any critical thinking and reading comprehension skills.

Rhaenyra is a compelling character because she is entitled and spoiled and lacks any political experience, she shows how badly Viserys fucked up when he tried to compensate for his guilt of murdering Aemma. Alicent is a compelling character because she is a mother who is trying her best to protect her children from the reality that if Daemon took the throne for Rhaenyra, he would kill all of them because they are a threat. She is even more of a compelling character in the books because of her ambition and cunning and want for her family to rise far above the ‘station’ of being a noble house in the Reach (as if house Hightower aren’t the oldest house in Westeros who could trace their lineage back to both the Garth Greenhand the high king of the first men and the Andal Kings that came afterwards). Daemon, for all that I dislike him as a character, is compelling for his ruthlessness and shortsightedness in his pursuit of the throne. He didn’t raise an army for Viserys because he thought he was a competent leader, he did it because it raised his own standing within Westeros, he groomed Rhaenyra not because he loved her, but because having him in her good graces means that he stood a better chance of being king after she was named heir. His ruthlessness is compelling. Taking it away to make him into a ‘malewife’ or a ‘loving father’ or a man who is lacking any ambition beyond wanting a valyrian wife is taking away his agency. It makes him seem like a Gary Sue who only wants the throne because his brother said Rhaenyra was heir. It makes it so that he is so completely white bread like that not even I, someone who loved the more morally bankrupt characters in ASOIAF can find him agreeable in any way shape or form.

Daemon is a fundamentally morally bankrupt character and he should stay that way. If you like him you should acknowledge and accept that he is one of the ‘bad guys’. Just as Cersei fans acknowledge and accept that she is fundamentally a morally bankrupt person who is selfish to the extreme. We like morally black characters because they are morally black. To make excuses for their actions is to take away their agency which makes them unlikable and very hate-able.

Daemons actions aren’t justifiable, blood and cheese would never be justified. A son for a son is akin to the visceral disgust the fandom had to Alicent when she asked for Lucerys’ eye, yet I bet when season two comes out and Blood and Cheese happens we’d see Daemon fans applauding and trying to justify it as ‘not that bad’ and ‘team green deserved it because of Aemond’s actions’ when little Jaehaerys, a boy of 6, was as far removed from the incident as can be. It would be akin to Team Green saying that due to Jaehaerys’ death, Aegon III or Viserys II deserved to have their head cut off in front of Rhaenyra.

Let morally bankrupt characters be morally bankrupt. You aren’t morally bankrupt because you like said character, it’s a fictional story loosely based on Empress Matilda. It’s not that deep. Like the characters you like without trying to justify their actions. They might be monstrous but you aren’t because you like them. It’s not a measure of your own character because you like said character. But it is a measure of your intelligence when you try to change said character’s entire personality to make it so that they are more digestible to you and everyone else.

#hotd #team green #anti daemon targaryen #blood and cheese #pro team green #cersei lannister #joffrey baratheon #jaehaera targaryen #like the characters you like without trying to whitewash them please and thank you #fire and blood #house of the dragon #anti team black stans #anti team black

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jeyneofpoole · 7 months

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bad show eppysode simulator. cersei has three glasses of wine in her hand and orange hair. she is making out sloppy-style with a floor length gilded mirror but oh no! jaime is not there! where is jaime? he’s actually staring soulfully into brienne’s eyes as she delivers a heartfelt monologue about being ugly (she is gwendoline christie.) across the narrow sea missandei is curling dany’s hair with a revlon styling brush it’s very chic very medieval. jorah is jacking off in the corner they just sort of ignore him. in the north theon and sansa are running through the woods to escape evil gay iwan rheon and theon looks sooooo tortured (they dunked alfie allen in olive oil and dressed him in an ascot made out of dryer lint.) loras gets hatecrimed so hard that he blows up and is never mentioned again. in the background of some shots you can see peter dinklage tying a noose. at the very end kit harington turns to the camera and says well we sure had a game of thrones! and they they all stand in a line and kill themselves. easily television!

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #got #game of thrones #anti got #sansa stark #theon greyjoy #ramsay bolton #tyrion lannister #jon snow #cersei lannister #jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #daenerys targaryen #missandei of naath #loras tyrell

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aplusbequalsc · 2 years

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#house of the dragon #daemon x rhaenyra #rhaenyra targaryen #game of thrones #jaime lannister #cersei lannister #jaime x cersei #anti twincest #jaimecersei #daenerys targaryen #anti lannicest #jon snow #cersei x jaime #jonerys #lena headey #nikolaj coster waldau #kit harington #anti jaime x cersei

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catofoldstones · 9 months

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Sansa Stark whenever the psycho bitch who killed her father or the next top contenders for Westeros’ most traumatised unaware pedophiles try to info dump & project their secrets/plans/opinions on her

#sansa stark #asoiaf #cersei lannister #anti tyrion lannister #anti sandor clegane #anti hound #or as I like to call it Sansa Stark throughout asoiaf #anti littlefinger #lf is a warning of his own #t reads asoiaf #and wants to kill almost all of the men in it #currently on: acok #← this tag so I can keep track #anti petyr baelish #I want my girl catching a break at least in the next book please #game of thrones #got #anti sansan

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unknown-terrain · 5 days

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Congrats to show!Jaime for finally making it to #1 on a popular media list! 😂 Good to see that heading onto the 5th anniversary of the disastrous S8, Jaime's forced Twincest ending is still truly hated by the masses and that Dumb and Dumber's dream of J/C becoming the "true love" story the audience would grow to love be completely shattered over and over. Anybody with a functioning brain could have told them Twincest was never going to be loved. GRRM himself told them that through asoiaf and making Jaime/Brienne his Beauty and the Beast story but of course D&D never understood the books and thought they could do better. Anyways it's always nice to see D&D get hate for ruining Jaime lmao.

#jaime lannister #nikolaj coster waldau #anti got #game of thrones #anti game of thrones #anti d&d #anti jaime x cersei #anti twincest #anti lannicest #anti cersei lannister #anti cersei #jaime x brienne #braime #brienne of tarth #asoiaf

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janiedean · 8 months

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I know it’s been ages since I’ve done this, but… Cracktastic Tales presents… your dose of entertainment! Inspired by the video of the pigeon shop owner.

Jaime finds a baby pigeon while he’s under Aerys and takes care of said pigeon and it proves to be therapeutic. Fast forward, Robert comes along and Jaime has his therapeutic pigeon (you can name the bird). Cersei hates the damn pigeon and wants to get rid of it and Jaime tells her that not, because that’s his bird and he loves it and the pigeon helped him go through some dark times.

The pigeon hates Cersei and vice versa. On the other hand, the pigeon likes Tyrion and vice versa. Jaime to spite Cersei buys a building in Kingslanding and opens up a pigeon owning business and everyone thinks he’s crazy but it turns out it’s a lucrative market especially when they realize they can be used as a messenger birds.

Long story short, Jaime gets to have something nice after Robert’s rebellion and his pigeon friend helps him get better. If other people, use pigeons later as companions that’s another story (e.g., Stannis, Davos, etc.). Additionally, if Browne makes an appearance, that’s yet another story. The End.

I'M SO SORRY I MISSED THIS ASK MONTHS AGO FFFF I APOLOGIZE I HOPE YOU'RE DOING ALL RIGHT DKLJGLJKS <33

also oh my fucking god this is GOLD I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT IT I WANT JAIME TO HAVE HIS THERAPY PIGEON HE ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY NAMED BAELON THE PIGEON AFTER THE OTHER YOUNGEST NAMED KNIGHT IN WESTEROS I STAND BY IT and gkljsdjkjgkjdlg oh my god jaime with the pigeon terrace is perfect I love this I'm referencing it and jaime selling stannis the pigeon so he feels less alone after he loses proudwing is killing me I'M 100% ABSOLUTELY REFERENCING THIS sorry for taking so long to reply!!! and thank you for the plot it's amazing çvvvvç

#ask post #jaime x brienne for ts #the daily crack #anti-cersei lannister #only slightly less toxic than chernobyl's ruins #anti-lannincest #anti-jaime x cersei #PERFECT #pigeons tag #i love EVERYTHING

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grey-joys · 8 months

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I know I want Sansa to go feral (as is her right at this point holy shit) but I’m not sure that would fulfill the point of her character. I can’t really imagine a world where Sansa’s kindness and amazing ability to forgive those who wronged her doesn’t win out (even begrudgingly so). Like there’s a reason she has so much connection to the Mother.

Gentle Mother, Font of Mercy

Soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way

Basically, I just want Cersei, the Hound, and Littlefinger to be wrong.

#I keep coming back to the concept of the Mother being fiercer than the Warrior when her children are in danger #wonder if it will come into play #stupid squid thoughts #game of thrones #asoiaf #sansa stark #valyrianscrolls #queen in the north #house stark #winter is coming #anti sandor clegane #not necessarily anti Cersei but #anti cersei lannister #just to be safe #anti petyr baelish #anti Littlefinger

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norringtondeservestheworld · 2 months

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"It's bloody hot in here"

We are in 2024 and I still see (stupid) people claiming that Braime shouldn't have happened because it was "awkward" and they use as argument Jaime saying to Brienne "It's bloody hot in here" making memes of how Jaime looks like a stupid teenager at the first crush and how his flirting sucks.

But the thing is that.. his flirting IS SUPPOSED to sucks. Jaime Lannister is a 40+ years old man who has been all his life in an abusive and incestual relationship with his sister who manipulated him since they were kids and used sex to have something from him in return and because of that he never slept with another woman because he never felt attraction for another woman.. until now. Brienne is the first woman he sexually and romantically desired outside his sister so IT'S HIS FIRST TIME TRYING TO SEDUCE A WOMAN.

Just look at him. The awkward smile, the eyes constantly moving. HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING. HE IS SO NERVOUS HE CAN'T EVEN UNDRESS HIMSELF.

And Brienne is as awkward as him. She is a virgin who has been mocked because of her appearance since ever, she wasn't estethically attractive and she knew. She never knew what it meant being courted or desired because she thought this day for her wouldn't come. So after Jaime patethic way of flirting she initially doesn't understand what the fuck is going on and gets confused, until she realized what is happening and all you can see is her completely disbelief.

The scene is supposed to be awkward because Jaime and Brienne are feeling awkward. Because it's their first time. Because they are getting vulnerable to someone who they disliked at first, but that now they love. Because they are living something that they never thought it would happen to them.

Just another prove of how Nikolaj Coster Waldau and Gwendoline Christie always understood their characters. While these people never did.

BONUS Jaime's face when he realized it's finally happening MY GOD I CAN'T WITH THESE TWO-

#braime #jaime x brienne #jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #nikolaj coster waldau #gwendoline christie #anti jaime x cersei #anti twincest #anti lannincest #THE CHEMISTRY THEY HAVE IS INSANE ASJHAJFHGJ #MY HEART #LOOK AT THEM THEY ARE SO SCARED AND VULNERABLE AND AAAAAAAHHHHHH

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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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Rhaenyra v Cersei: Battle of the Bastards

Lo' and behold, looks like I'm not done with bastardposting after all. For this piece, I would like to compare and contrast the two main situations that the general public has been exposed as far as the issue of illegitimate children is concerned within the ASOIAF-verse: Rhaenyra v Cersei.

The parallels are obvious. Rhaenyra has three bastard children, Cersei has three bastard children. Let's see how they handle it.

Rules

According to Westerosi law, bastards can't inherit. It doesn't matter if they're the husband's or the wife's, the King's or the Queen's. Children born out of wedlock to any spouse are explicitly excluded from the line of succession.

Only the King can legitimise bastards via a royal decree. Enough of these "Roose legitimized Ramsay" lies. It's patently untrue. Tommen legitimized Ramsay.

In order to be legitimised, the children in question first have to be declared bastards. You cannot legitimize trueborn children. You cannot secretly legitimise bastards. "Viserys claimed Rhaenyra's children were trueborn, ergo he implicitly legitimised them." No, he didn't. He never admitted they were bastards.

Why does this matter? Because it is unclear where legitimised bastards fall in the line of succession. If they maintain their place by birth order or if they are relegated to the back of the line, behind any and all other trueborn claimants.

There are no genetic tests available in Westeros. People have to prove adultery or rely on common sense.

1. Cersei has a distinct advantage over Rhaenyra, since her children look like her. She can very easily argue that they favour her, as their mother, and this is exactly what everyone believes for years, including Robert. Since Jaime is the male version of Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella can look like no else. Catelyn's kids look like Catelyn and no one bats an eye. Only Arya and (to Catelyn's irritation) Jon look like Ned. However, Ned doesn't ever doubt his children are not his.

Rhaenyra's kids look nothing like Rhaenyra and nothing like Laenor. They, instead, share distinct physical traits with her sworn shield, a man seen very often in her presence. People are not idiots. There is no plausible deniability here. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Cersei's kids were, say, Dornish-looking, people would be calling her out for her bullshit.

There is a way you can reasonably get away with passing over your bastards as someone else's, but that is 100% not Rhaenyra's way. This is why Cersei is chilling in the Red Keep, living her best bad bitch life, while Rhaenyra is running away to Dragonstone when the rumours are nipping at her heels. They are not the same. There are no paternity rumours to quell Cersei's girlboss vibes. She is sly enough that even Robert is convinced he inseminated her (gross).

2. I'm not going to get into the intricacies of Ned Stark's Scooby-Doo, Hercule Poirot mystery plot of unraveling Cersei's misdeeds. Ned has his own beef with the Lannisters and is convinced they are up to no good. He investigates them like the meddling kid he is and comes away with a suspicion. He knows nothing (heh) for certain until Cersei verbally confirms it for him. yOuR bRoThEr Or YoUr lOvEr. boo!

Had Ned not been on the Lannister trail from the very beginning, a fair assumption can be made that he never even would have suspected anything untoward. He never questions the children's paternity when they visit in Winterfell.

Again, this is distinctly different from Rhaenyra's situation. No one believes Cersei's children are bastards,* whereas no one believes Rhaenyra's children are trueborn. Pretending otherwise is very, very strange.

*at the beginning of AGOT, at least

3. Robert claimed Joffrey all his life and specifically named him his son and heir in his will, under dictation, to Ned. In turn, Ned deliberately changed Robert's words and wrote them down as "my rightful heir".

This is a parallel to show!Alicent, who misunderstands Viserys' dying words and him naming his son Aegon as heir. If Alicent didn't have the right to muddle the King's meaning, then neither did Ned. However, no one in their right minds is arguing that Ned is a traitor to the Crown. I wonder why is that?

I have already pointed out the circular logic in arguing that Robert only said that because he didn't know the children weren't his.

4. So what does this mean? Can anyone just accuse anyone they don't like of being a bastard and, thus, endanger that person's entire social status?

No, of course not. But, unfortunately for Cersei, Ned and Stannis aren't just some randos in a tavern. Ned is the Hand of the King. Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and on the Small Council. These two men have a stalwart reputation and are renowned for their obsession with justice, duty and, in Ned's case, honour.

If Ned Stark stands in front of the Iron Throne and proclaims Joffrey a bastard, risks his daughters' lives and literally ends up losing his head as a result of this,

if Stannis Baratheon sends letters throughout the realm claiming Cersei's children are illegitimate,

the people of Westeros are going to pay attention.

These two very important men using their public platform to denounce Joffrey and starting wars over this? Say what you will about them, but they are not oathbreakers and they are not liars. No, they don't come with DNA tests, but for a lot of Westerosi, this is enough. They believe it.

Is this foolproof? No, of course not! But it convinces enough people that they are willing to band together to support rival claimants to the throne, thus igniting the War of the Five Kings. Speaking of political headaches, this is a huge one!

That being said, while Cersei is playing in the Champions League, Rhaenyra is fighting for her life in the relegation zone. She doesn't even need a Ned or a Stannis to cast doubt on her because no one believes her kids are not bastards.

Moreover, Vaemond obviously parallels Ned in this story. He tells the truth in open court and loses his head for it. In the show, Daemon and Viserys play the same role as Joffrey. In the texts, Rhaenyra and Daemon are stand-ins for Joffrey. This is not meant to be a triumphant moment of girlbossery. This is an abuse of power and an act of terror.

All in all, I'm sorry to say, but Cersei wins this hands down. She is savvy enough in her choice of sperm donor and can maintain plausible deniability without looking like a goddamn clown and the entire circus to boot. She holds the capital and has access to all the emblems of state after Robert dies. In contrast, Rhaenyra is floundering across the Blackwater Bay, yelling at the dragon gargoyles that her children are trueborn.

Why is this issue important in the story?

a). No one has a problem with Jace being King.

If people had a problem with Joffrey being King, enough to go to war over it, it would be narratively inconsistent for them to just accept an obvious bastard as King. It would contradict the internal logic of the fictional world we're talking about. That's quite some level of suspension of disbelief just because some fans like Jace. This isn't about him being amiable or a good kid.

b). They're still Rhaenyra's sons / it's a Targaryen internal matter and concerns no one else / the concept of Jace being King doesn't personally affect anyone else, so why does anyone care?

Because it's the freaking law! The name of the crime Rhaenyra commits is high treason! Punishable by exile or death!

No, the crime is not adultery, it's not having bastard children, it's specifically putting said bastard children in line to the throne. In that, Rhaenyra is as guilty as Cersei is.

It absolutely does affect others, since Rhaenyra actively steals the inheritance of House Velaryon for Luke. How is that not a crime? I would even go so far as to say that Laenor and Corlys are complicit in it and should be punished as well.

Contrary to bafflingly-popular erroneous beliefs, the monarch can't just do whatever they want. Even in absolutist monarchies, the sovereign serves the vital social role of upholding the law and the rights of their subjects. Rhaenyra breaks said law by committing theft, murder, high treason and destabilizing the entire system of inheritance.

c) Rhaenyra breaks the social contract

Jock Locke argues for the "right of revolution" in the Second Treatise of Government. He writes that when the government acts against the interests of its citizens, then said citizens gain the right to overthrow it and replace it with an authority that will protect their interests.

I am not trying to impose 'progressive' understandings of the political process anachronistically, in a medieval fantasy; my thesis-statement is that we have already seen this concept at play within the world of ASOIAF: the Faith Militant uprising against Aenys I and Maegor due to their practices of incest and polygamy and Robert's Rebellion, caused by Rhaegar kidnapping a noble lady and Aerys II carrying out executions without due process. The people of Westeros are not unfamiliar with opposing monarchs who don't abide by the law.

The question of Rhaenyra having bastards is framed in a lot of commentary through the lens of her right as a woman to have extra-marital sex and not be demonised for it and to find fulfilling love within the constraints imposed on her by her station. While debating the personal individual freedom of women in a patriarchal feudal society is not to be side-lined, her fundamental fault is that she is demanding rights and exemptions for herself, while the rest of the country have to abide by an entirely different set of rules.

The laws of inheritance, as unjust as they may appear to our modern eyes, are in place to prevent crises of succession, violent conflicts or even large-scale wars from starting every time someone's estates are passed on. Illegitimate children suddenly gaining access to inheritances threatens the political and economical calculations that predicate many Westerosi marriages.

Imagine paying a handsome dowry for your daughter, just so her husband's bastard birthed by some high-born mistress to make use of his maternal family's resources and cheat your legitimate grandchildren out of theirs.

Imagine being married to some lord and now his random bastards threaten the inheritance of your lawful children. Because, hey, the Queen acts like this is fine! This is Catelyn Stark's worst nightmare.

You think you can just sue your husband? What a silly notion. You think you can sue the bastard claimants after your husband is dead? Tough luck, your liege lord may rule in their favour by taking a leaf out of Queen Rhaenyra's book. You think you can appeal to Queen Rhaenyra? How are you going to travel all the way to King's Landing? Good luck with that, maybe you're built different and don't die during this dangerous and expensive journey.

Is this fair for the illegitimate children? Hell no, but Rhaenyra and Viserys are not planning on reforming family law in any meaningful way, because they know what a hassle it would be and how much opposition it would meet!

It reeks of rights for me, but not for thee and I, for the life of me, don't understand the stronghold she has on the liberated feminist brigade.

and finally

d). The Green Coup is not dependent on the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children.

No. But her committing high treason earns her an automatic disqualification from her right to rule, rendering her claim null and void.

#anti rhaenyra targaryen #cersei lannister #house of the dragon #asoiaf #anti team black #team green #stannis baratheon #hotd meta #bastardposting #ned stark #cersei is the one true queen of westeros don't let anybody tell u different #forgive me queen for dragging u thru the streets like this #u remain the no1 messiest baddest bitch in my heart

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2rats1gogh · 10 months

Text

Stop comparing Alicent to Cersei. Compare Rhaenyra to Cersei instead.

Let’s go over some similarities they share, shall we.

1. Both Cersei and Rhaenyra had several children with their lover (Jaime and Harwin) and pretended like those children were legitimate even if it was pretty damn obvious in Rhaenyra’s case that they weren’t, and somewhat suspicious in Cersei’s. Alicent didn’t love her husband either, yet her children were all legitimate and fathered by her husband.

2. Both Cersei and Rhaenyra were pretty spoiled children of rich parents that made them believe that their actions will have no consequences, so they could get away with pretty much anything since their daddy has their back. Alicent was never spoiled and never really did anything that she would regret. She always did her duty as wife, mother and queen.

3. Both Cersei and Rhaenyra always pretended like their children are perfect and could do no wrong. I’m cheating a little with this one, tbh, since Cersei kinda knew that Joffrey was fucked up but still, she never really did anything to stop him/fix him. The only time she slapped him was because he asked her “if Robert fucked other women when he grew tired of her.” She never really punished him for everything else he did and always took his side. Alicent always calls out Aegon for his behavior and don’t forget the “you are no son of mine”. Cersei would’ve never said such a thing to any of her children, not even Joffrey. Neither Rhaenyra or Cersei would comfort the rape victim of their child.

4. This one is kinda hard to explain but; both Rhaenyra and Cersei are responsible for the way their children turned out to be. Cersei was responsible for Joffrey being the way he was, and Rhaenyra was responsible for Lucerys’ behavior (i will never shut up about him cutting Aemond’s eye off). But you cannot fucking blame Alicent for Aegon being a rapist (i haven’t read the books but as far as i’m aware, that never even happened in the books, it’s just a show thing to demonize the Greens. Correct me if i’m wrong).

5. Even tho both were women, neither Cersei or Rhaenyra ever were feminists. They only cared for themselves and their own well being, as well as their children’s. Alicent has always been an altruist and although she doesn’t do much to overthrow patriarchy either, she doesn’t really have the power to do that. But again, at least she cared for others and the smallfolk, not just for herself.

6. Cersei kills or threatens anyone who dares speak to her or her children the wrong way, and Rhaenyra isn’t much different, being afraid that the truth about her bastards might come out. Alicent was not an usurper, she never tried to silence others for the truth, since she has nothing to hide.

this post is kinda chaotic, i wrote this list at like 1 am and was tired af so maybe some things aren’t really understandable so sorry about that lmao

#team black stans dni #anti team black #anti team black stans #anti rhaenyra targaryen #cersei lannister #pro team green #anti rhaenyra #hotd #house of the dragon #asoiaf #pro alicent hightower #pro alicent #team green #game of thrones

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