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valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn · 11 months

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Have you seen this very long post on why Stark was completely right in CW? I understand you enjoy picking these types of metas apart

tumblr.com/protect-anthony-edward-stark/654070608511041536/as-some-people-seem-to-not-understand-or?source=share

Wow, I hadn't seen it and it's uh... well, it's really something. 🤦‍♀️ That's a long-ass post and this is a long-ass answer, so more after the cut.

Posts like this one really prove that the Accords propaganda worked on a lot of fans, the word "safety" is uttered a few times in there as if those documents had any intention of keeping people "safe" from the Avengers or the enhanced. At this point I wonder, do these fans consider the enhanced as "people" at all?

It is quite scary that some are so quick to give up on freedom in order to gain in security, especially when these exact words are something Zola says in TWS. That guy was Hydra, folks.

Then, all that talk about Stark feeling guilty and blaming himself for everything... I do believe there might be some truth to that but that's just the thing, feeling guilty is free. If the result of all his actions is him going back to his luxury home and never having to pay for all his mistakes while those around him have to either go on the run as fugitives or serve time in jail or have to spend months in house arrest... what can I say, I'm gonna have a problem with that.

He felt responsible for that American kid's death, yes. What about Pietro though? What about the other Sokovians? There's a young woman in the team who lost her brother and her home that day... did he ever care about that?

It's interesting that OP mentions Steve having to go outside the law to find Bucky, but of course they don't mention he's forced to do that because the American government, the same that tried to force the team to sign the Accords, had sent the CIA to kill an innocent man on sight despite having no actual evidence of a crime. And regarding Stark offering "medical care" to Bucky in the US... why is Stark even offering that in the first place? What authority does he have to do that? He's not an Avenger anymore, he's a civilian, he had no power to suggest such a thing, he was talking out of his ass.

Also, suggesting to someone that they sign a document and only after that those papers can be modified is a scam. Anyone who has ever signed a contract knows that, it's not difficult to understand.

But there's something that I have read so many times and I still don't understand: "At this moment Steve was close to signing". No, he wasn't? He was listening to Stark trying to understand the situation, but I never saw him thinking about signing. What these stans misread is that Steve was NEVER against accountability, if anything he's the one who was completely game with that. It's Stark the one trying to direct the blame for his actions elsewhere. So of course Steve was going to listen if presented with a chance to get some accountability... the problem is he understood full well the Accords were NOT that.

Regarding Wanda, it's kind of infuriating to read that she was locked up in a luxurious facility so why is she complaining. Well, maybe because that house arrest was illegal? Because it was trumping her civil rights? Because Stark had no authority to do such a thing? Also, it's funny that OP says Stark had Vision with her because he knew she liked him -- he chose Vision because he's the most powerful one.

And I don't see how Stark could possibly protect her from the blame she might receive when she was being blamed for Lagos way before Ross showed up with the Accords. That incident is the reason she was locked up despite the fact that she saved everyone on that street. We're okay with locking up the heroes for a crime committed by the villains? I sure as hell I'm not.

Regarding Peter, OP says Stark took time to get to know him before "recruiting" him. Yeah, he took time to realize Peter was ideologically on Steve's side at which point he deliberately chose to withhold the reason why they were fighting, he lied to Peter and took him out of the country without informing his legal guardian. But hey, he was a 15-year-old kid, it's not problematic at all. "He wanted to keep him safe". You know how you keep that kid safe? At his own home and not in a fight in a German airport.

OP: "It's better to stay together as a team than go outside the law". Nope. Not at all. Not like this. Not when signing those Accords take the civil rights of a good portion of the population and half the team. What does "stay together as a team" even mean? At this point you gotta ask yourself why do the Avengers exist at all?

Then OP claims Stark "tried to avoid the fight" in the airport, which is kinda funny considering he refused to listen to Steve and he's the one who started the fight, and then this gem: "Team Cap goes against the law, ignores 117 countries, and tears the team apart."

Yeah... and why? Steve tells them about Zemo but does Stark and his team care? Nope. And at that point we all thought he was going to use those Winter Soldiers to his advantage, so yeah they were forced to go outside the law.

As an aside, all this "go outside the law" is said so many times, it's kinda weird. Are we back to the thought that if something is made law that means it's morally right? Surely we know better than that, yes?

Then, the Raft. So Stark "didn't know" they would be kept in a prison such as that but the same guy who hacked the helicarrier not two minutes after arriving in it in The Avengers doesn't have a damn second to get his ex-teammates out of the Raft? He didn't tell Steve about it either, how long were Clint, Sam, Wanda and Scott there? He cared oh so much according to OP... well, he sure as hell didn't show it.

But of course, we reach the point where OP says Steve knew it had been Bucky who killed the Starks. I think there's enough meta on this site to prove that's a lie and Steve had no way of knowing it had been Bucky, but I want to point out this scene OP includes in their post:

They claim this is proof Steve knows, but what I see here is Steve trying to put the focus on himself and his so-called "lies" in order to take the spotlight off of Bucky and have Stark focus on him. Because they know each other and at that point maybe Steve thinks he wouldn't attack him - and he knows in which state Bucky is. He's trying to protect him, this is not an admission of guilt.

Oh and, OP claims Steve and Bucky attack Stark? Nope, he's the one who attacks first. But OP is right, Stark does return home after he almost had an innocent man killed. No consequences at all, as per freaking usual.

Look, I won't deny Stark had a lot of issues and I think IM3 did a pretty good job with that. But the thing with this guy is... he's not well. He's supposed to be a morally grey character who makes mistakes and is amazingly flawed and the only way his character can develop and evolve and improve is if everyone around him calls him out on his shit, if he pays for his actions and he understands what he has done wrong. But the MCU right post-AoU decided no one would ever do that and he would be framed forever as 100% right, so we ended up with a character who never learned a damn thing, continued making the same mistakes over and over again, had the gall to call others out while having his own actions swept under the rug and he got a heroic death scene in EG and a funeral and tributes in other movies whereas other characters, mostly Natasha, were completely put aside like they were nothing.

That kind of treatment gets him so damn close to villain territory... which is a shame because he shouldn't be there. But alas... Phases 1-3 were the Stark Cinematic Universe, unfortunately.

#anti tony stark #team cap #steve rogers #anti sokovia accords #well that was long!#sorry for the length but thanks for the ask!

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uneducated-author · 6 months

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Okay something I never figured out about Civil War is why Peter is on Tony's side beyond manipulation.

Tony very much manipulates Peter, despite Peter being excited to go. He does insist that he Can't travel to Germany, and the big change in opinion is when Tony threatens to tell Aunt May, to which Peter visibly reacts with a sort of desperation. I'm not saying he isn't excited when he's actually there, what with filming a video diary, but the fact remains that he's WAY out of his own depth.

But the thing is... Peter is like, technically a mutant right?

Under the rules of the Accords, his status as a mutant would HAVE to be disclosed, publicly. So, if his side is successful, he would be legally required to register his identity and ability. Or maybe Tony would have to.

It's also super messed up that at the end of Homecoming, Tony arranges a press conference when Aunt May STILL doesn't know Peter's identity.

Tony literally blackmails Peter with his identity to get him to fight for a cause that will expose his own identity? It's just not sitting right with me, I don't know if maybe I missed something.

#marvel #anti tony stark #peter parker #anti sokovia accords

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moonlayl · 2 years

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OH MY GOD

#mcu #matt murdock #daredevil #sokovia accords #anti sokovia accords #pro team cap #anti tony stark #she hulk #she hulk spoilers

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cloudinterlude · 1 year

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what misconception? 👀

I assume this is about the Civil War post I made and oh boy, so many. So, so many. Let me preface this by saying I actually like Civil War enough as a movie. Not as a Captain America movie, but it's engaging and I enjoyed it for the most part. I mostly dislike the dogshit opinions about it. To prevent this from turning into a dissertation, I'll just list the ones that come to mind first/irritate me the most:

"Steve was completely against regulation and oversight" WRONG. He was against the vagueness of it all. He explicitly says that he wants to know whose going to be holding his leash if he has to have one. In fact, he was about to sign the Accords before Tony told him about them preemptively enforcing it and detaining Wanda. Steve was willing to consider the Accords, Steve was trying to discuss the Accords, Steve was on the path to being open to the Accords before the moral failings of it were already shining through. Steve, rightfully so, is distrustful at this point of anonymous authority. Following the news that Hydra had their nasty paws in SHIELD and other high positions in government, Steve decides that he wants to know more about the people who have authority over him. Seems reasonable enough.

"Steve was only against the Accords for Bucky" WRONG. 1) Before he was certain that Bucky was being framed, he says that he has the best chance of bringing him in to minimize damage. Then, when he was certain Bucky was innocent, it became a matter of not letting his bestie be falsely imprisoned and/or killed on the spot. 2) Lemme just add that yes, Bucky is extremely important to Steve, but Steve would have still been against the Accords if Bucky wasn't a factor. I need people to understand this. It wasn't just a "oh no I need to save my best friend". 3) If you read what was in the Accords, you'd understand why Steve would generally be against them. They're abhorrent.

"Steve didn't read the Accords/Steve didn't even attempt to communicate or compromise." I haaaaattttteeee this one with a burning passion. Did we watch the same movie? He's quite literally the only one on screen we see even look at that long ass document. Probably also the only one would could even manage to read the thing since it was sprung up on them 3 days before the meeting (which is a whole 'nother issue for later. For now, I'll just say I support the Ross conspiracy theory). He also tried to tell Tony & Co. before the airport fight that Zemo was the one behind all this conflict, that Bucky is innocent and about the 5 other ultra-dangerous super-soldiers who, as far as he knew, were about to be unleashed onto the world which would be disastrous. Unfortunately, Team IM was wracked with tension and didn't listen and attacked.

"Steve and Bucky jumped Tony (+ variants of this statement)." This is one that confused me so much. Such a bullshit take. I am begging people to rewatch CW and watch the fight. Tony, whose emotions is dialed to a thousand (and not only because of the Bucky thing mind you, but I can talk about that a lot more later because I like talking about Tony's emotional/mental state during Civil War) attacked first, then tries to kill Bucky, Steve tries to get Tony to stop killing Bucky, Tony is trying not to kill Steve, Bucky is trying to get Tony not to kill Steve or him. It's a mess. Mind you, Steve isn't even trying to excessively harm Tony in this scene. It's confirmed that during the entire fight, he was trying to disable the suit. Not trying to beat Tony to a pulp - DISABLE. THE. SUIT. Which he manage to do in the midst of that shitshow.

"*insert any anti-CW Wanda take*" Please, someone please tell me why people think Wanda has any blame for what happened Lagos? Wanda quite literally didn't CAUSE that. I need to understand this point of view before I get an aneurysm. She didn't make the bomb, bring the bomb, set the bomb off. It was Rumlow who had that bomb that would have ended up killing way more people on the ground than where Wanda managed to put it. She absolutely was as much of a hero as she could be in that instance, trying to redirect the bomb away from civilians. Unfortunately, it still ended it casualties, but a lot less than it would have been if Wanda hadn't intervened.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. Fanon CACW quite literally has some of the worst fan comprehension I've seen in the MCU. I imagine that a lot of it is not understanding characters, the movie not elaborating on important plot points in an effort to make it 50/50 (which they failed at lol), and the fandom being a lot more conservative than I thought. I can expand further on anything if you want!

#post office #cacw #pro steve rogers #pro team cap #anti sokovia accords #captain america civil war #mcu #steve rogers defense squad #thank you anon

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entity9silvergen · 4 months

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It’s been like seven years but I’ve been thinking about this and I need to know.

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marvelismylove · 3 months

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I just realized i haven't ever posted about my take on captain america: civil war and the sokovia accords (in detail). Because i have a lot ot thoughts about the whole thing. I used to be firmly team cap. Nowadays, I'm team "they're all idiots."

And I'm going to get into that right now!

First off, the sokovia accords would never have worked. It's the government. They're corrupt, and when they aren't, it's only a matter of time until they become corrupt again.

I mean, this is the government that had hydra secretly growing within it for longer than cap was on ice! And to think signing over what is basically the "right" (is it even a right, in the first place?) to be a superhero (?) to the government? Not even the government, but all governments! That's the stupidest idea ever!

So, i agree with steve's thinking, for the most part. But i do not completely agree with steve. He's a self righteous ass. Nothing more needs to be said on that, at least for right now.

However, Tony was being a bit emotional and impulsive. He had the best intentions but when faced with the casualties of sokovia, he panicked because he's never really had to look directly at the death and destruction his superhero activities cause. And as a consequence as the way he grew up and the things he's been through, he had no idea how to cope with that. He couldn't fix this with money and so he wanted to just give control to someone else, someone (seemingly) more qualified. He never really has to take responsibility because he can usually just throw money at his problems and/or ignore them.

Tony never really thought about what the government would/could/might do with all the power the accords gave them.

But now, I'm going to switch focus back to steve. Steve didn't even try to see where Tony was coming from. He was very, "I'm right. You're wrong. Fuck anyone/everyone who disagres" and all. Tony was willing to try and work together.

Amd Tony's heart was in the right place. And tve thought/idea of working with the government, or at least trying to, is a good one, he just shouldn't have agreed to the terms so quickly. That kind of thing needs a lot more negotiation and stuff.

And that's my take on it.

Well, the actual accords themselves, at least.

#harleys commentary (marvel version)#captain america #captain america civil war #anti sokovia accords #but also anti team cap #marvel #tony stark #iron man #ca:cw #civil war #steve rogers #team iron man #but #mcu #bucky barnes #sorta

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therese-lokidottir · 3 months

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This scene frustrates me so much. Because Maria Hill doesn't give a good reason for registration. If the same laws of vigilantism apply here as they do in the real world, then the heroes should already be considered criminals and should be arrested. Most of the Avenger's identities are public, so what's the point? Heroes with secret identities aren't going to be swayed because the already public identity heroes join SHIELD. Especially not the X-Men.

As with every version of this stupid storyline, an explanation is never given of how registering is going to prevent heroes from messing up. Hate to break it to you, but the cops and the government screw-up sometimes. If for once the discussion was about what the preventive measures for disasters were or what the reconciliation would be when harm or destruction happens because of villain attacks.

Every time it's treated just the act of registering itself is the solution when it should be so much more than that. Although I have to confess I am so curious of how Civil War would have played out in EMH. Would have been Maria instead of Tony on the registration side. Because that would make a lot mores sense

#avengers earth's mightiest heroes #maria hill #tony stark #anti sokovia accords #marvel civil war

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ifandomus · 2 years

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Well, no wonder why they supported Tony and the Sokovia Accords; they don't see the enhanced characters as human beings either.

#mcu #anti tony stans #anti tony stark #anti ironman #anti team ironman #anti sokovia accords #pro team cap #pro steve rogers #steve rogers

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breckstonevailskier · 11 months

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Rewriting Captain America: Civil War to actually make it a Captain America movie

Let's face it, the biggest problem with Civil War is that despite Captain America's name being in the title, it's not really a Captain America movie. It's more like an Iron Man 4 or Avengers 2.5 masquerading as a Captain America movie. I mean, the plot relies more heavily on threads from Avengers: Age of Ultron than it does Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Not to mention the creators deliberately trimmed/cut Team Cap scenes because they wanted audiences to be split 50-50 on what side to take, as if they needed to do that to make Team Iron Man Support a Piece of Legislation That Reads Like Something Written By HYDRA look good. And Tony Stark has more dialogue than Steve Rogers gets. And this is around the time when basically, the writing for the MCU decided to stop letting other characters call Tony out on his wrongdoings.

So how does one fix that?

General changes:

For starters, have HYDRA still be as important as they were in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Rather than have them be conspicuously absent, they are still very much lurking in the shadows. Bonus points by having the movie strongly imply (and members of Steve's side speculate) that the Sokovia Accords might be a brainchild of HYDRA's. After all, the Accords (and the ways they basically take away the rights and freedoms of enhanced individuals) read like something out of Nazi Germany, the place that Red Skull's HYDRA originated in.

Scene by scene changes:

Lagos aftermath:

The opening act in Lagos remains unchanged. It's a great action setpiece. However, some extra stuff is added to acknowledge that Rumlow's cell is obtaining the bioweapon with the purpose of carrying out an attack directed at people who pose a threat to HYDRA's existence.

In the aftermath, what I would change is the press coverage that goes out of its way to vilify Wanda. T'Chaka's biased take blaming the heroes for the destruction caused by Wanda relocating the explosion can stay, and maybe the second one where if not for the mentions of Wanda, you'd think they were talking about Rumlow. But I'd also add at least one newscast that is speaking favorably of the heroes, and praising Wanda for her efforts.

I'd slightly tweak Steve's scene with Wanda, and instead of saying, "The deaths are on both of us," he'd say, "It's not your fault, Wanda. It's Rumlow's fault. It's not your fault that he was a spiteful coward who decided he wouldn't let us take him in alive." I'd also have a scene or two of Vision doing his best to comfort Wanda and provide her someone to express her thoughts to, not unlike this scene from WandaVision:

youtube

Also a thing I'd fix is that I'd have the Avengers make some sort of press statement to defend Wanda from those who are unfairly vilifying her. Something to the effect of Natasha, Steve, and/or Vision going in front of a gaggle of reporters to read a statement as follows:

For the past month, the Avengers have been in pursuit of Brock Rumlow, international terrorist and confirmed member of HYDRA. Last week, the Avengers tracked him down to Lagos, Nigeria, where his cell was plotting to steal a biological weapon that it is believed they were going to use to carry out an attack that would kill hundreds of people. Acting per their training, the Avengers engaged Rumlow and his men, successfully killing or incapacitating most of them, and reclaiming the bioweapon. Eventually, Rumlow was successfully cornered. However, as Captain America was preparing to arrest Rumlow, he decided to blow himself up. As there were hundreds of people in the immediate area, Wanda Maximoff instinctively stepped in and used her powers to try to relocate the explosion into the sky where it wouldn't kill anyone. Despite Miss Maximoff's efforts, she ended up losing control of the bomb, and it ended up destroying part of one office building. It is a tragedy that despite the Avengers' successful efforts to stop Rumlow, there were still innocent civilian casualties, including the dozen or so people in the office building that were killed by Rumlow when he blew himself up. However, the blame for those deaths does not fall on Wanda Maximoff. Those deaths are the fault of a madman who, two years ago, was part of a plot by an organization dating back to Nazi Germany to use gunships to mass murder 20 million people, and whose motto is "Cut off one head, two more shall take its place." In addition, it needs to be pointed out Miss Maximoff also saved the lives of everyone in that marketplace. If it was not for her split second thinking, hundreds more people would be dead. And if the Avengers were not there in Lagos, a group of terrorists would have successfully released a bioweapon into the world, one capable of killing thousands. The Avengers are not responsible for the destruction brought upon by the bad guys that they are attempting to stop. That blame should start and end with the bad guys.

Because yeah, that would do wonders for Wanda.

Ross blaming the heroes for the destruction caused by the villains:

Yeah, this is something where Ross is a fucking hypocrite. “How about ‘dangerous’? What would you call a group of US-based, enhanced individuals who routinely ignore sovereign borders and inflict their will wherever they choose and who, frankly, seem unconcerned about what they leave behind?” Then his biased presentation showing footage from the Chitauri invasion in New York (The Avengers), the destruction of the Triskelion (Winter Soldier), Sokovia (Age of Ultron), and Lagos. This presentation is clearly done to paint Steve and his allies in a bad light, and Tony in a good light.

Thing is, though, this is just Thaddeus Ross blaming the heroes for the destruction caused by the villains. Not only in every aforementioned situation would things be worse if the Avengers weren't there (New York City would've been nuked by the WSC, HYDRA would've gotten the Project Insight carriers launched and 20 million people dead, Ultron would've wiped out human life, and terrorists would've gotten away with a bioweapon), but Ross is a hypocrite to try to pin this destruction on the heroes given his failures to capture the Hulk and the destruction he caused in his efforts. @thehollowprince posited here that they really should've had Steve call Ross on his hypocrisy right there and then.

Like, in response to Ross's remarks, Steve would speak up to say, "The Avengers as a whole are not responsible for Ultron destroying Sokovia's capital city. If you want to blame someone for that, direct all your blame at that man who decided to go behind his teammates' back to create Ultron," and point an accusatory finger at Tony. And as I said, have Steve throw Ross's failure back in his face to show that he really has no skin in the game.

Passage from thehollowprince's take on what should've been said:

“But, in the spirit of fairness, let’s talk consequences.” Steve went on. “F.R.I.D.A.Y.?” “Yes, Steve?” The A.I. said from the speakers. “Could you roll footage of Culver University, spring semester, 2008?” The screen that had been off immediately clicked back on and began playing back footage from cellphones and cameras of Ross’ failed attempt to contain and capture the Hulk in the middle of a crowded campus, using an unauthorized enhanced human, as well as weapons that put the civilian population in extreme danger. The last image was of the Hulk launching an armored truck at another, the screen immediately going static as the footage was lost. “Harlem, three days later.” The Hulk’s fight with a severely mutated Blonsky showed on the screen next, as well as the atrocities that Emil committed on his own before Banner stepped in to stop him. Ross’s face was reddening at having one of his biggest failures played in front of the very people he was trying to intimidate. Harlem was on of his biggest failures and he did a lot to try and distance himself from it. “Thank you, F.R.I.D.A.Y.” Steve said and the screen froze on an image of the infamous Abomination lifting a car above his head, about to crush it into some police officers. “Tell me, Mr. Secretary, where were your consequences? Because from what I understand, you tried to pin the whole thing on Blonsky and Banner, getting a medal and a promotion for your trouble.”

And, as happens in the hollowprince fix-it, Steve, as a last-minute parting shot, drops a bombshell on Ross that he was on HYDRA's hit list and would've been eliminated by Project Insight in the initial attacks upon the helicarriers' launches.

The Accords debate itself:

The big problem with the debate itself is that it's very one-sided. It's more "Tony and his allies make a lot of flawed points, and no one on Team Cap is allowed to call them out on it." So basically, the way to fix it would be to rewrite the debate using a combination of this one by @thehollowprince, as well as these ficlets on Archive of Our Own.

So, obviously, I would rewrite the debate to be more in Team Cap's favor, while we get multiple opportunities for Tony's side's points to be quickly picked apart and called out. To give examples of how this could go:

Have someone on Team Cap point out the whole fact that HYDRA would benefit greatly from this legislation, since it would curtail the freedom of superheroes' ability to respond quickly. And even for those in the UN who might not be compromised by HYDRA, it's a power grab. And it's also a power grab for Ross.

When Rhodey brings up Ross's medal of honor, have Sam point out (as he does in thehollowprince's fix-it) that a Congressional Medal of Honor doesn't mean shit, and comes off with Ross like a white man being rewarded for doing a subpar job. (Also, have someone remind Rhodey that the Accords would've prevented him and Tony from rescuing the President of the United States from Aldrich Killian had they been in place at the time of Iron Man 3, especially seeing as the Vice President was also in Killian's circle.)

I'd cut Vision's whole BS equation entirely. Instead, I'd have him on the side of Team Cap for this movie, and logic, "The number of potentially world-ending events has risen at a commensurate rate. Oversight is not an idea that can be dismissed out of hand, but the form that is being given to us by Ross is one that makes me calculate that the next world ending event has a likelier chance of succeeding.” (Vision's reason for being on Team Cap here is partly because he cares for Wanda, but mostly because he views himself as human, and the way Ross just dehumanized Thor and the Hulk by likening them to nukes makes Vision think Ross would view him the same way; this would actually be consistent with the will he has in WandaVision where he wished not to be turned into a living weapon, the very will that Tyler Hayward disregarded. On top of which, he realizes that he, Wanda, and Steve would be the most severely impacted by the Accords because they seem to be harsher on those who have innate superpowers than those who have removable suits.)

Have an instance or two of Tony being called out on his America centrism. Particularly when he brings up Charlie Spencer's death. In response to that, I'd have Wanda snap at him with a bit of pure rage. Why would I have Wanda do this? Because he's basically ignoring all the Sokovian citizens who died, up to and including Wanda's brother. "And what about my brother, hmm? What about Pietro? Remember him? Does his death matter to you, Mr. Stark? Or do you not give a shit about him because he's not American?"

Use Ross's antics from The Incredible Hulk to posit that Ross or HYDRA or any party with nefarious intentions could use the clause about demanding enhanced give up blood samples so they could use said DNA to create their own army of super soldiers.

Peggy's funeral, UN bombing, pursuit of Bucky

There's few changes here. But one change I would make is that Steve wouldn't just go with Sam to bring in Bucky. I'd have Wanda and Vision brought along too, because after a serious discussion, they think that the best way to salvage Wanda's reputation with the public is to have her going out to do heroism in public. When they get to where Bucky is hiding out, they bring him in, and Wanda gets to use her telepathic powers to render unconscious some of the SWAT forces sent to bring Bucky in. Then T'Challa joins the pursuit, and they are all captured in the tunnel.

Wanda meets Zemo and T'Challa

We then have the whole setpiece at the detention center where Bucky is detained. Natasha is firmly on Team Cap's side, but is taking a neutral stance to gain dirt on the other side. In addition to all the canon interactions, we also have Wanda interacting with T'Challa and recognizing his revenge quest because she still remembers very well what it was like for her last year wanting revenge against the Avengers, and how badly that ended for her. She empathizes with T'Challa and tries to persuade him to look at the bigger picture, not with much success. When Zemo infiltrates the facility to activate Bucky's Winter Soldier programming, Wanda goes down with Steve to subdue him and ends up encountering Zemo. She recognizes him because she knew his wife and son before they died, she once met him at the dedication of one of the memorials to the victims of Ultron's attack, and he's got a reputation in Sokovia as a killer.

Airport battle

The airport battle obviously is very different. Tony has Rhodey, Spider-Man, T'Challa, and a few other superheroes (or maybe Ross's special forces are there as backup). While Steve has Bucky, Scott, Clint, Wanda, Natasha, Sam, and Vision. This airport battle plays out more in Steve's favor, and despite Tony's efforts, everyone on Steve's side makes it to the quinjet and flees to Siberia with him.

Siberia final act

Steve and his team enter the HYDRA base, and make it to the containment area where the other Winter Soldiers were kept on ice, and have been all put down by Zemo. The fact that the Winter Soldiers are already dead, all shot in the head with a pistol, makes Steve surmise that they're walking into a trap.

They've barely had time to acknowledge this when Team Iron Man arrives and corners them. At this point, Steve is fed up with Tony for having such flawed judgement, and T'Challa still very much is on the warpath against Bucky. But as the two sides prepare to clash once again, Zemo chooses this moment to reveal himself. He wasn't exactly expecting to have an entire Avengers team there, but he's willing to improvise. Zemo even tries to liken his crusade to Wanda's misguided revenge campaign, only for her to shut him down by pointing out that she never wanted innocent people to get hurt, whereas Zemo did murder innocent people for his crusade (T'Challa's father and everyone else at the UN; the doctor that he killed and stole the identity of to get into the detention center to activate Bucky). After that, Zemo plays the surveillance footage of Bucky killing Tony's parents.

The moment Steve and Natasha realize what the footage is showing, Steve gestures for the others on his team to get Bucky away from Tony. Rhodey also realizes that Tony's preparing to attack Bucky, and tries to reason with him, but to no avail. Steve doesn't want Zemo to win, so he clarifies that he didn't know it was the Winter Soldier that HYDRA used to kill Tony's parents. This only enrages Tony further, and a nervous Natasha admits that she was also there when Zola told Steve this information.

In that split second, all hell breaks loose. Tony's rage boils over and he shoots Natasha with one repulsor, throwing her backwards and knocking her out. He tries to shoot Bucky with the other, but Rhodey is able to grab his hand and deflect the blast away from Bucky.

A fight ensues. Like in canon, T'Challa is the one who captures Zemo, though he also has some help from Scott, Spider-Man, and maybe Clint. Meanwhile, the other Avengers are left either fighting Tony, protecting Bucky, or both. With a fight that basically plays out as a mix of "the Guardians plus Iron Man, Spider-Man and Doctor Strange vs. Thanos on Titan" and a bit of "Payback vs. Soldier Boy from The Boys".

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Ultimately, the Avengers still in the bunker succeed in taking down Tony, but Natasha, Rhodey and Bucky take severe injuries in the process. The fight ends when Wanda leaps on Tony from behind and uses her powers to attempt to disorient him, giving Steve an opening to smash his arc reactor with his shield. Vision then tears it out of the armor for good measure.

The Avengers effectively turn their backs on Tony Stark, and the movie ends with them as a whole condemning his misguided actions as well as condemning the Sokovia Accords, and taking the unified position, "After the events that happened in the course of pursuing the person responsible for bombing the UN in Vienna, the Avengers have elected to reject the Sokovia Accords, although we are open to alternative forms of oversight if the UN is willing to negotiate with us and also purge their ranks of anyone who might have ties to HYDRA." They also make publicly condemn Tony for trying to murder Bucky out of misplaced anger. Vision and Wanda settle down in Westview, Clint and Scott return to their families, though they'll still meet up with Steve, Sam, Natasha and Bucky for missions, and Natasha still meets up with Yelena and her old spy "family" to destroy the Red Room.

This then segues into another movie that's about Steve and his team of Avengers (Sam, Natasha, and occasionally Wanda, Vision, and Clint) going around the United States doing everything to get the Accords struck down and Ross removed from office for his abuses of power (especially since while the UN's been forced to let them go, the Raft is a walking human rights violation that no one should be locked up in for any reason).

#Youtube #anti sokovia accords #anti team iron man #anti tony stark #pro team cap #anti thaddeus ross #wanda maximoff #pro wanda maximoff

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unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff · 1 year

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I really should have talked about this author when I did my “good MCU fanfics” rec series a few weeks ago, but to be honest, there’s so much to recommend with this author that they get their own separate post.

Basically, ever since 2017 this author has been writing counters to all the things crazy Tony stans say, and pointing out all the bad things Tony has done. I’m going to share some of my favorite ficlets with you now. Warning, there are a LOT.

Tony [Stark] has a lot to answer for - the author’s very first ficlet series in which they detail every way Tony wronged the other Avengers in Civil War. This one is only 12 chapters, so I don’t see the need to point out my faves as there are so few.

Actions Have Consequences [For Tony Stark] - highlights:

- May Parker finds out what Tony did to Peter in CW and gets him arrested

- The many problems with the Sokovia Accords

- My favorite if this collection; the Wanda chapter

- Team Cap did not rely on Tony’s money

- The Guardians of the Galaxy offer their take on the Accords

But Wait, There’s More [Prop-Tony Tropes]! - highlights

- Howard Stark would not approve of Tony’s actions

- Tony’s man-pain is not an excuse

- Wanda’s illusions were not mindrape

- Obadiah Stane’s under-the-table deals are not comparable to anything Bucky (or Wanda for that matter) went through, and Tony was most likely self-aware enough to realize that

- Why the fuck would Ultron stop mid-fight to say that Wanda was responsible for creating him instead of Tony?

Inconvenient Truths About Propping Tony Stark - highlights:

- Tony’s gamble to kill Stane was not a sacrifice

- Nebula would be disgusted and horrified if she knew what Tony did in Siberia

- My favorite of these: after the Snap, Steve gets a visit from Wanda’s spirit thanking him for giving her a new family (this was written pre-Endgame where we learned everyone was totally deleted from existence)

And the [Prop-Tony] Tropes Just Keep on Coming - highlights:

- The idea that Tony could get the Accords amended is preposterous

- If Nebula learned about the Accords, she would be furious at Tony

- Steve crashing the Valkyrie in the ocean WAS a sacrifice

- Contacting the Nigerian authorities would not have stopped Rumlow

- There were absolutely civilians who supported Team Cap

- Vision would NEVER turn against Wanda

- Killing Vision immediately in Infinity War would have been a horrible idea

More Inconvenient Truths About Propping Tony Stark - highlights

- Pepper was probably aghast at Tony’s refusal to help undo the Snap

- Morgan could have seriously injured or killed herself with that helmet and gauntlet

- May Parker would be horrified if she learned about EDITH

- Tony never gave a shit about Vision

- Tony never cared about Wanda in the slightest

- The other Avengers would have personally arrested Tony if they learned about EDITH

- Tony was not left for dead in Siberia

- Tony was fine with letting the world burn so long as he got his perfect life

- If Tony knew about the Accords ahead of time, that makes him even more despicable than he already is

- Shooting Sam point-blank was arguably the worst thing Tony could have done

- Team Cap DID face the consequences of their actions

- If Tony tried to tell Wanda he wasn’t responsible for her parents deaths (which I’d like to think he had the common sense not to do), she would absolutely school him

- The Avengers would have been better off without Tony (this one is a DC crossover in which Luicis Fox and Superman take Tony’s place in the first Avengers movie)

- Tony may or may not have designed the sonic cannons Ross used on the Hulk

- Rhodey was not given a suit during the climax of Iron Man 3, and that was dumb

- Tony never gave Nebula a second glance after getting back to Earth

- Peter would cut ties with Tony completely if he learned about Siberia

- The SHIELD data dump was carefully planned

- Bucky would NEVER, EVER turn on Steve

- Bruce would be disgusted with Tony for supporting the Accords

- None of the Avengers tried to kill Tony during Age of Ultron

- If Wanda has to stand trial after Age of Ultron, then so does Tony

- Pepper and Rhodey would be furious at Tony if they knew what happened in Siberia

So Many [Prop-Tony] Tropes So Little Time - highlights:

- If Clint learned about Tony’s refusal to help undo the Snap while he was still Ronin, he would most likely have taken drastic measures

- The Doctor would never in his/her two thousand years of life or beyond support Tony (this one was particularly cathartic as a Doctor Who fan)

- Wanda does not have to forgive Tony just because Yinsen did

- Rhodey and Vision would both blow their stacks if they knew who Peter was

- Sarah Rogers would be proud of Steve for standing up to Tony

- Pietro Maximoff would NEVER support the Accords, much less take Tony’s side over his own sister’s

- Peggy Carter would be ashamed of Tony

- Steve is an actual captain

- Team Cap would not leave Scott (or anyone else) behind if they could help it

- T’Challa would not refuse to help get Wanda’s shock collar off

- If you seriously think a World War Two veteran would support Tony over Steve, you are delusional

- If Tony and Gamora ever met, she would not like him

- Maria Stark would not approve of Tony’s actions

- Steve having that checklist in Winter Soldier is not indicative of his skills as a leader

- Wanda would never side with Tony over Steve

- Nigeria did not support the Accords

- The universe would have been better off if Tony had gotten shot down instead of Rhodey and he went to Siberia instead

- Bruce never tried to hurt or kill Wanda in Infinity War or Endgame

- Why the fuck would Asgard support the Accords?

- There is no canonical proof that Wanda or Pietro were formally trained by Hydra

- Scott was probably horrified at the fact that Tony did nothing to help after the Snap

- If Sam actually did get shot down, Tony at least would probably have just kept going after the Quin-Jet

- If for whatever reason Wanda had cast her Hex in the ruins of the Avengers Compound while everyone was still there, it would not have lasted very long at all

- Abraham Erskine would probably hate Tony

- Michelle Jones would have had Tony running out of Peter’s apartment like a bitch if she had been with Peter that day

- If Tony forced the Avengers to choose between him and Wanda, they would choose Wanda

- May and Ben Parker would NEVER be pro-Accords

- Wanda convincing Tony to start spending his money on the world would be a good thing

- Wanda and Bucky never met until Leipzig

- If Logan Howlett randomly showed up in Leipzig, he would be on Team Cap

- If Redwing was sapient, it wouldn’t betray Team Cap for Tony

- If Howard and Maria Stark were deep-frozen in Siberia, they would horrified to see what Tony was doing

-If Tony summoned Khonsu to kill Team Cap, he would be the only one Khonsu would kill

Ghosts of Conversations Past - in which Tony’s awful words are reacted to more appropriately. Highlights:

- Bruce is furious at Tony for saying Steve should have been left on ice

- Peter dumps Tony upon realizing his deception

- Wanda and Pietro actually get to call out Tony for claiming that arms dealing was never his life

- Revealing Clint’s family to Ross was arguably the most evil thing Tony ever did

- Natasha is internally hurt at Tony’s callous insult after Leipzig

- Steve explodes at Tony over his WMD crack

- Bruce reacts more appropriately to Tony’s story in Iron Man 3

- Remember that double whammy homophobic AND transphobic comment in Iron Man 1?

- Stane’s final quip about Tony was 100% true

- Tony sticking it to Congress directly contradicts him being pro-Accords

- That famous gif of Tony rolling his eyes only exists because he is a jackass

- Vulture gets to take his explanation further and rants about Tony’s callousness

- Tony is a massive hypocrite

- Tony not paying the Avengers is completely in character

- Per No Way Home, Tony had a Star Trek Matter Replicator and never shared it with anyone

You Could Make a Case for That - assorted headcanons realized. Highlights:

- Morgan being a robot would have made about as much sense as what we got

- If Strucker’s pedestal for Loki’s scepter was booby-trapped, Tony would have died, and the universe would have been better off

- Tony insisting that Wanda and Pietro belonged in prison would be wildly hypocritical

- The Infinity Stones may or may not have made sure Tony died

- That deleted scene from Endgame where Tony shaves Rocket is 100% in character for him, and it is awful

- Tony not wanting to undo the Blip might have made more sense if Morgan was adopted after being orphaned by the Snap, but that would definitely have made him even more despicable

- If Mantis read Tony’s emotions, she would feel nothing but egotism and rage

- Whether Novi Grad was bombed by Hydra, NATO, or whoever, Tony is stil responsible for his bombs being sold to them

- If Pepper went to Siberia via the Rescue suit, she would be on Steve’s side

- the villains of the MCU liking Tony is not a good thing (this one was a rebuttal to a specific Tony stan fic)

- Tony failing SHIELD’s evaluation in Iron Man 2 was completely fair

- Tony has a lot in common with Lex Luthor

- Vulture didn’t reveal Peter’s identity, and Loki didn’t reveal Clint’s family, but Tony did

- The fact that Tony and Bruce were nowhere near an interface when Ultron came online is irrelevant; the mere fact that they had plugged in evil alien tech is the problem

- Steve did not hurt Tony by disabling his suit in Siberia

- Vision and Shuri probably helped keep Team Cap off the radar

- Goose the Flerken would not like Tony

- Steve and Tony on Vormir together would not work at all

- Tony has a lot in common with Kang

- If the other two Peter Parkers learned about Tony during No Way Home, they would be horrified that MCU Peter looked up to him

- If Tony had tried to rebuild the world after the Snap, he probably would have made things even worse

#ao3 #mcu fanfiction #anti tony stark #anti tony stans #steve rogers #sam wilson #clint barton #bruce banner #scott lang #wanda maximoff #bucky barnes #james rhodes #natasha romanoff #peter parker #thaddeus ross #anti sokovia accords

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cloudbells · 6 months

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I think I understand your frustration. Although I was always a Tony fan more than Steve, I love him all the same and his story captivates me. Some time ago, I realized some Stevetony shippers hated Steve when CW came out. Worst part being that, with all the bashing, I was beginning to hate him too. I realized this and decided to stop interacting w the ship for a few years because I wasn't happy with that bashing. Luckily, I came back to find many talented stony shippers/artist who love both Steve and Tony (both their flaws included!). I enjoy CW angst, but I feel sometimes it really makes people bash either Tony or Steve and it pisses me off.

LONG POST

One, thank you anon for the message! Two, I’m actually super curious which post of mine prompted this message lol. I have quite a few both on this account and my main. Third, you actually sent this at a time where I’m pretty passionate about this, so allow me to be a little loose and lengthy with my words for a bit.

CACW was absolute Hell for the stevetony fandom, especially for Steve stans, but in a way, I’m kind of happy I can see just who doesn’t actually like Steve and only liked him on a condition of him being around to be Tony’s buffer. You can see it in the way people write/talk about Steve. They want a blank, playdough character that coddles Tony.

I actually like CACW as a movie. I think the more I analyze how the characters behave and why they do what they do, I like it even more. I’ve said this a few times, but Steve became my favorite after watching this movie. I liked him a whole lot before, but the way he conducted himself in Civil War stole my heart straight from my chest. So when I came online to see that everyone apparently thought he was worse than Satan himself…It was the whiplash of a lifetime. It didn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t make sense to me. Even me, fully being on Steve’s side, didn't hate Tony for what I consider to be slights against Steve in that movie. So where was this visceral hatred for Steve coming from? I just concluded that people already lowkey didn’t like him. Never ask a Stony shipper their opinion on Avengers 1 lol.

I love talking about CW. I have quite a few posts on my stance about it and honestly, I wished more people asked me about CW so I could talk about it, but the reality is that they don’t need to because I already talk about it all the time lol! Everything they want to know is probably somewhere on my page or somewhere on Discord. I think CW has such a huge potential to produce some really good discourse and storylines within the fandom, but people were so blinded by…whatever they were blinded by to see that. I swear, some of the things I see, I’d bet my arm that a lot of people either didn’t watch CACW or watched it once, consumed a bunch of headcanon about it, and then proceeded to talk about it like they personally studied the film and all its nuances.

Now, in the stony fandom, it’s clear that Tony is the fan favorite. Overall, actually. And I don’t mind that for two reasons: I’m used to liking characters that are somewhat controversial (for the wrong reasons), and I adore Tony. I actually love that man in ways words can’t express. The English language hasn’t evolved with enough intricacies that would allow me to tell you how much I am enamored with him. So seeing that other people love him too? Instant joy. BUT, this runs into the problem when Steve is paired with him because well, we see it.

My irritation comes from people either outright ignoring, mischaracterizing or not understanding Steve in CW. So many huge misconceptions were being spread around like wildfire to the point where some people think that Steve not reading the Accords is canon. They think that it’s canon that Steve only opposes the Accords for Bucky. They think that Steve was being unreasonable or purposely uncommunicative or outright egotistical in CACW for refusing to sign the Accords. They think that Steve is against all oversight and wants to be a loose cannon. They think Steve is being immature and wants to avoid accountability for anything. They think that Steve was trying to lie to Tony when he first answered that he didn’t know about his parents, instead of it being deeper than that.

Y’know, so many of these same people accuse Steve of being boring and flat, without realizing that they are the ones stripping the nuances and complexities of his characters away from him and then turning around and whining about how one dimensional Steve is. It pisses me off, truly. It especially pisses me off in the stony fandom cause I expected better. If people still actively ship them, you’d think that they would make the effort to understand Steve instead of screeching loudly about how he’s evil AND being wrong about the reasons why he’s evil.

And the thing is, Steve’s motivations aren’t even confusing. They just aren’t. I've had Steve fans tell me it's confusing so I should ease up, but it isn't and I won't. Do I sound like a bitch here? Perhaps, but I don't care rn. Maybe they’re more subtle, especially considering that CW took the time to spell out all of Tony’s pain and past and guilt and internal conflict to the audience while Steve’s mindset was more so hinted at in his own movie. But let me rant about that later. Steve is the only one shown on screen to be reading the Accords, and then he elaborates a bit on why he’s against them. Despite this, the audience seems to take literally everyone else's word on Steve as law (Rhodey saying Steve’s mindset is a sign of arrogance and fandom parroting about how arrogant Steve is for example) instead of just…paying attention to what Steve says and what Steve does. He actually almost signs before Tony tells Steve about Wanda. And this scene is very important to me. Because Steve was about to decide to just trust Tony, and go all in with him until Tony just told him that his objections to the Accords were already being enacted. So yeah, he reacts the way he did. It’s a shock how close he was to signing away to a document he KNOWS is evil because he read it—

Let me stop before this turns into a CW meta. But, in short, I just hate the bashing of Steve. He of all characters doesn't deserve it. The way people bend backwards to twist his every action into some malicious intention. I’m surprised people haven’t pulled muscles by the way they reach to demonize him. In his own goddamn ship. And y’know what, it’s not even just the Steve mischaracterization that causes this. So many Tony fans willingly mischaracterize Tony just to demonize Steve. But that’s a convo for a different post.

This post was gonna be much, much longer. I had a shit ton I suddenly wanted to speak on, but I decided to stop here lol. I was getting off topic when all you did was express sympathy. Thank you again!

#me my mine #CACW #pro steve rogers #steve rogers defense squad #steve rogers #got hit up #thank you anon #anti sokovia accords

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valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn · 6 months

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There's things I am understand from Tony Stans when they write 'Steve mistake ',

1. They will using reason Steven choose bucky over tony

2. Steve hide / lie the fact about tony parents death

3. Steven is not read accord and not make negotiations about accord

4. Steve recruit clint, sama and wanda and make them in raft. So it's steve mistake

From the four point the third point is bothering me. I am not gonna lie I kind forget the detail civil war but, steve did and the only one that read accord. Also if I am not wrong Ross didn't give chance go steve and everyone to negotiations about accord at all, I meant he said avenegrs onel have three days accept or retired. I menat what kind f&** is that. They have no time to negotiations about accord at all

And Tony said the can make negotiations after they sign the paper, that not how work. You can't make negotiations after to signed the papers, the UN won't considered that they want control, you signed you follow what is inside

So I think it's was weord they blame steve no want negotiations at all. Because there's no time for that, also Steven considered the accord if they for innocent protection and not for government to controlling innocent peoples. So why they keep point that?

I think they need to come up with excuses, half-truths and lies because no matter how hard the Russos tried to paint both teams as equally right, Team Cap is the only one in the right.

To your first point, Steve is against the Accords way before Bucky is even in the picture.

This is something that not only the haters but many fans seem to forget: Not everything Steve does has to do with Bucky. He has a separate life and a mind of his own, and those Accords go against everything that makes him who he is.

To your second point, Steve had no way of knowing Bucky had murdered the Starks. Zola said this:

Zola: "For 70 years, HYDRA has been secretly feeding crises, reaping war. And when history did not cooperate, history was changed." Natasha: "That's impossible. S.H.I.E.L.D. would've stopped you." Zola: "Accidents will happen."

And this was shown:

This required Steve to assume Bucky had been the only Winter Soldier at the hands of Hydra. He could have guessed but he didn't know for sure. And going to Stark to tell him "I found out your parents were murdered but I'm not sure of what happened", over 20 years after the fact is not exactly ideal. Not to mention Stark had hacked Shield's systems two years prior. He didn't exactly do a good job of digging there, and Steve and he weren't that close.

To your third point, whoever says that is lying. Steve is the only one shown reading the Accords:

My man has perfect memory. He knew very well those Accords were an abomination.

And to your last point, Sam, Clint and Wanda have agency and they knew what they were getting into before they went to the airport. Unlike Peter Parker who was lied to by Stark, Steve was very clear that he wanted his team to know who and why they were fighting, and the consequences of doing so. Even with a stranger like Scott:

They chose to follow Steve because they knew it was the right thing to do. Clint left his family, Wanda risked her life and her freedom, so did Scott, Bucky and Sam. All of them followed and did the right thing because they're heroes, it's what they do.

Ross knew very well what he was doing. As Secretary of State, not only did he keep the Accords under wraps until only three days before the UN meeting, he kept from the entire team that an Accord is not the same as a law and it was a constitutional violation to try and enforce it on the team and the citizens.

They had no time to negotiate. They would have needed to lawyer up and do everything in a short period of time: the meeting was in Vienna and they were in NYC, if you count the time it would have taken them to get there, the time they needed to find a lawyer they trusted to go through the whole thing and come up with a good enough case to stand up not only to the US Senate but the UN… yep, they had no time to do so. That was Ross' plan all along.

Stark telling Steve the Accords could be amended after he signed them was no more than an attempt at manipulation. There is something important to keep in mind here: Stark would NOT be affected by these Accords at all. As shown in the movie, he broke them when he flew to Siberia and nothing happened. Ross called him and he put him on hold, and nothing happened.

Stark is used to doing whatever the hell he wants (like basically telling the government to suck it when he refused to give them his suits. What happened to him? Nothing) and facing no consequences whatsoever. So in his mind, signing these papers means nothing, he can break them whenever he feels like it and he'll find a way to get away with it. For Steve and Wanda, the Accords were a direct violation of their civil rights. It's not the same.

Steve was never against accountability. The Accords were:

#team cap #steve rogers #anti tony stark #anti sokovia accords

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