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#and mobius and loki have SO much chemistry
acidkoipond · 6 months
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percheduphere · 3 months
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I'm kinda curious, especially since a lot of people have very different views on this: How do you think Loki and Mobius would be in an actual, official, romantic relationship? I kinda think they would keep doing what they're doing but I don't really know what level of romantic stuff they would do. They're already pretty physically affectionate, but would they do that in public since both of 'em are pretty secretive about their normal emotion? They compliment each other but would they use things like honey and dear in a serious way? Etc. So...How do you think this time couple would be like?
I adore this ask because all my headcanons about Loki and Mobius being in an established relationship are SOFT. The best part is, canon supports this.
While I do agree that Loki and Mobius's dynamic will continue the way it has been, I also think a certain level of emotional intensity will be brought into the mix, increasing their general chemistry in front of others ten-fold. The banter, the idea spit-balling, the lack of personal space, the smiles, laughs, and long gazes ... imagine all of that dialed up. Loki loves as hard as he hates and is a hedonistic show off. Mobius has loved Loki since Day 1 and repressed his feelings for long enough. Are they really going to be reserved around each other once they're securely in a relationship?
No! They will be the most sickeningly lovey-dovey couple in the MCU.
WORDS OF AFFIRMATION
S1 had Mobius advocating for and complimenting Loki in private and in front of others. S2 had Loki reciprocating. It is not hard to imagine them becoming fiercely protective of one another on and off the field. Cross one, the other is crossed. They are a two-package deal, and both are vicious when it comes to wielding words on behalf of the other's dignity.
As for terms of endearment, I can imagine Loki calling Mobius "Darling" on spare, particularly emotional occasions. Mobius, on the other hand, still has Don in him. "Sweetheart" and "Honey" are very in-character pet names he would use. Both reserve usage of these names in private as Loki hates blushing in front of others, though Mobius has a tendency to slip when he's multitasking at work.
PHYSICAL TOUCH
The hug in S1E5 seems to have opened the door for physical affection come S2E1. Loki and Mobius (especially Mobius) touch one another with affection, attentiveness, and protectiveness on instinct. Despite not being romantically involved in S2, they move around one another the way two lovers in a small kitchen might. Once in a relationship, they will continue to do this but certain gestures will hold more meaning, in particular: holding hands.
One of Mobius's first gestures of kindness, which Loki initial rejected, was a handshake in S1E1.
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The second time Mobius offers his hand, Loki takes it and uses Mobius's compassion as an opportunity to steal the time twister from his pocket.
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Mobius offers another handshake in S1E5, which Loki declines in favor of a heartfelt embrace that he extends to Mobius and Mobius happily accepts.
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Physically (and symbolically), Loki and Mobius's relationship was founded on Mobius extending a hand and Loki refusing it, betraying it, and finally taking it. I therefore see them holding hands regularly, every day, because holding onto one another is grounding, comforting, and reminds them of these earlier moments in their relationship that they've overcome together.
As these two are not shy about tight embraces in public, I doubt either would feel shy about chaste kisses either. They are so in-sync and adoring of another that it goes without saying that when they have sex, they make love passionately. They communicate with touching just as much as words, so heteronormative "bottom and top" designations are thrown out the window and into the dumpster (where they belong). How they have sex conveys how they feel about one another in that specific moment.
PDA
Among others, I can see them being nauseatingly sweet. We already know what bystanders look like when they tease and bicker with one another:
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And make no mistake that Loki would up the dramatics with PDA just to gross Thor out. Thor making a "barfing gesture" cracks Loki up every time, and Mobius, resigned, goes along with it because who doesn't want to get peppered with kisses?
QUALITY TIME
I haven't seen anyone point this out yet, but it's hilarious to me that S2E3 starts in broad daylight and cuts to evening by the time Loki and Mobius stroll out with cracker jacks in their hands.
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Loki looks a little annoyed but he is going along with it for Mobius's sake. Sightseeing at the World's Fair makes Mobius happy, and whatever makes Mobius happy, Loki will indulge even if he's not interested. Like that key lime pie he didn't eat.
If this is their relationship when it's platonic, then be ready for Mobius to take date night very seriously.
Dinner and a night at the opera? Naturally.
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Eating pastries and drinking coffee while people-watching in Paris? Absolutely.
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Biking side-by-side along the Dutch Coastal Route in the Netherlands? Of course!
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Mobius will take care of all the planning and Loki will enjoy sharing new experiences together. On (frequent) occasion, Mobius will surprise Loki by choosing an activity he knows Loki will enjoy, such as visiting an ancient library or perusing fine clothes at a bazaar.
Point being, these two have always enjoyed each other's company and have fun together. In a relationship, they will actively take time out of their schedule to bond more purposefully!
ACTS OF SERVICE
Both Loki and Mobius are strong when it comes to communicating love through acts of service. Where Mobius is a little higher on words of affirmation, I believe Loki is slightly higher here. Loki pays attention to Mobius's interests, habits, and creature comforts. He will commit to memory the exact way Mobius prefers his steaks, sandwiches, salads, and coffee prepared.
Mobius, for his part, will take care of things Loki doesn't like doing. Taking out the garbage? Done. Washing the car and filling it with gas? Did it while you were asleep. Filling out paperwork? Say no more.
Sadly, I don't think either of them have a talent for cooking. Loki grew up with palace servants. Mobius relied on the TVA cafeteria. They will attempt to conquer the kitchen together, but the end result is always either a fire or a flood. It's okay. Loki can name Mobius's top 5 take-out places off the top of his head.
GIFTS
Neither Loki nor Mobius strike me as big on gifts, but when they feel the sentiment, they give one another meaningful things that only they understand.
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I think Mobius may be slightly more inclined for gift-giving. He knows what material objects mean most to Loki and why. Loki, meanwhile, might feel challenged in this area. Not for a lack of enthusiasm, mind, but because Mobius doesn't have many material desires beyond a jet ski. Loki would like to think he's more creative than getting Mobius a new one once a year.
In short, Loki and Mobius already engage in the 5 love languages. Being together will only strengthen what they do for one another, much to their friends' longsuffering annoyance.
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Thoughts on Lokius (from a Former Sylkie Shipper)
When season one was airing, I was a casual Sylkie shipper. Mostly, I just wanted to see Loki in love. I thought it would be such interesting character development, a side of him we had never seen before. I also remember telling my friends “oh my god, it makes so much sense for Loki to be in love with a variant of himself, because he thinks he’s the greatest thing alive.” I remember sitting in front of the TV and cheering at their kiss. (yea yea “selfcest” i don’t care blah blah blah. It’s a fantasy show with a crocodile Loki and a horny holographic clock. DON’T CARE)
Anyways, after a couple of years, I’m starting to see things differently.
Loki acts like he thinks he’s the greatest thing alive. Obviously it’s a defense mechanism. We’ve all known this since the first Thor movie. It’s one of the reasons we love him so much- he has such depth.
Anyways, he has so many deep-rooted self image issues, and while I’m fine with Sylkie, I just don’t think Sylvie is the greatest thing for him. (Why am I acting like Loki’s therapist rn? What am I on about?) He can see his negative traits in Sylvie, and she can see hers in him.
And I may be late to the party- but I’m starting to see the Lokius thing.
Mobius has put so much faith in Loki from the very beginning. He’s known the entire time who Loki is at his core, despite his wrongdoings. He doesn’t love Loki because he, himself, IS Loki. He loves Loki… just because he loves Loki.
They also have this undeniable chemistry. It lights up every scene they’re in together.
Maybe it’s “platonic,” or “brotherly,” or whatever, and like most Lokius shippers, I don’t think Disney/Marvel would ever make it canon. But I would love to see it.
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pennie-dreadful · 5 months
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Because I'm seeing way too many of y'all bend over backwards to explain to Sylkie antis that Sylkie isn't """"selfcest""""
STOP. STOP IT.
Besides the fact that selfcest is not real and is in no way analogous to real world abuse or harm, it wouldn't matter even if it were. This post is not about rehashing that disk horse, though. This post is to say that YEAH IT'S WEIRD, LOKI AND SYLVIE FALLING IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER IS DEFINITELY WEIRD. We have had Mobius and Brad/X5 both remark on it, in fact. A romantic relationship between 2 variants of the same person from different timelines is still pretty significantly fucking weird.
AND THAT'S OK
That's why I like Sylkie, godfuckingdammit. I could not have come up with the concept if I tried, and if it had just been explained to me I would throw my hands in the air in frustration (while I certainly have enjoyed plenty of Loki shipfics, at the end of the day I don't really ship him with anyone and I violently hated the idea of him getting a canon love interest). But Tom and Sophia sold me on it with their frankly insane chemistry, and I honestly think they're the only canon Loki pairing I could ever accept, because the relationship itself mirrors Loki perfectly: kinda fucked up, weird and deviant. It's not a fairytale romance. They don't fix each other. They had every reason to hide their feelings and not trust each other, but they still did. AND THEN THEY STILL FUCKED IT UP AND HURT EACH OTHER, because turns out they have opposing ideologies re: the multiverse and how to save it (and what it needs saving from).
Sylkie shippers, you don't need to pander or justify yourselves to self righteous moralizing biphobic assholes. You just don't! Own the weirdness that is Sylkie! I am begging you to stop trying to prove that there's nothing wrong with Sylkie, and recognize that the fucked upness is the whole entire goddamn point.
(Addendum for clarification: this does not mean that I think Loki and Sylvie can't still have a healthy and balanced relationship. They can! I very very very much want them to! But they are both 15 different kinds of damaged and they are so, so not there yet. It's about the journey, not the destination 💚)
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miomystars · 5 months
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lokius rant
What angers me so much about the probably queerbaiting Lokius chemistry displayed in the series is how it would have seemed if it had been a heteronormative presenting pair. Imagine, if all the (obviously romantic) scenes between Loki and Mobius had been with Sylvie, or another female presenting character, how would it had been perceived? Romantic, of course. They would never ever in a million years throw it off as "platonic". They wouldn't even have to kiss (another ridiculous requirement for two characters to be accepted as a romantic couple) for it to be "official". Our Loki being male presenting and Mobius being a dude only result in our annoyingly heteronormative society viewing it as a "bromance". C'MON!! It's gay, your honor. Open your eyes!
side note: the same issue remains when it is a hetero pairing that is actually platonic. How many great friendships and character story lines have not been ruined by forced romantic pairing? *cough* loki and sylvie for example
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busyxfangirling · 5 months
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The second season is honestly becoming increasingly harder to watch because what are they trying to do?
The show is titled Loki but he feels like a side character is his own show, I know many MANY things are happening but literally Loki is not the central figure driving the story.
My expectations were low but I did not know Disney could do this much worse!!!!
What the FUCK was episode 3 with the Miss Minutes thing and weird little Ravonna/Victor attempt???
Marvel is just getting worse and worse with what they're putting out, I want the character or even narrative driven stories back where people were well fleshed out, had consistency and their actions made sense to who there were!!! This feels like just trying to sell shock value because you know you have a base of consumers who will stay to see what happens to their favourite character.
They are absolutely ignoring all the material they have available to them to work with! This Loki has only experienced things till the Avengers movie, there is so much character deep dive they could do! What is the point of giving them their own show and then not talking about them at all??
I'll come to the queer things later cause boy do I have a list for that, but first of all, Loki is not a new character in any capacity??? He has been loved and is arguably the biggest fan favourite since his introduction, the amount of theories about him and what people would like to see is very well known!! Right in front of them is his still unclear feelings in his adoption, about being a Jotun, loosing his family and the complicated relationships with them. I can see they are acknowledging his God of Mischief status a little bit but!! Trickster!! Let us see him be a wild card properly!! Not in the sense of betraying his new TVA family - that's what it is and you can fight me on that- but being chaotic!! Yes, using his magic like with Brad!! SHOW ME HE IS A GOD!!!
The worst thing is how lost everyone feels, like I'm not talking about the whole free will conundrum everyone is going through, that is spectacular! Unfortunately it is not coming across, we literally don't get to hear any of the characters talk about what they think of it. There was the key lime pie moment but no follow up to what that is for Loki? It's just one crisis after another, maybe rehash some of what has already happened, bring back the seriousness of this!! The entire multiverse is at stake but we'll make it look like whimsical wishy-washy stuff??!??!!!
Don't get me wrong, I am LOVING the time travel aspect of it, where it looks like Loki/Mobius are on cute dates. But then make it real, the fucking queerbaiting is ridiculous. The throw-away comment in season one about looking being bi was just that and nothing else. And I'm not saying this cause aww they look cute together! But also cause the development of their relationship has been as such!! They have been very dependent on each other and that's not being addressed at all.
I know there are multiple posts about a possible betrayal and my fear is that they're going to try to use that to basically change everything about the characters again, a lot of OOC based on the fact that oh yeah they're going through an existential crises so it makes sense.
Sylkie made barely any sense to me even apart from the whole selfcest issue- they just imposed a the structure of what a straight relationship should be where there was barely any chemistry. S1 E3 had them as really good chaotic siblings/twins and then adding the romantic tones to that really ruined it. Trying to bring it back, possibly, is just weird cause so far they want very different things. These people just don't align together, stop forcing them to? The fact that they refuse to even talk about that kiss shows that they are keeping it open and not just acknowledging that "hey, we don't want the same things in life and I'm happy for you, you matter a lot to me but a romantic relationship is not happening. Also cause you know, we're the same person, lol."
Sylvie as a character is also very confusing rn, there is honestly no need for her to keep coming back in this way??? I'm going to reserve further opinions because half the season is left but I dont expect anything to really get better.
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mobius-m-mobius · 5 months
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I cannot believe that season. truly just. there was not a single episode I didn't sit down to without a genuine conviction that *this* would be the episode where they spit all over everything I loved about the show. I braced constantly throughout the episodes as they kept setting themselves up for Very Stupid story choices only to pull the rug and go "HAHA surprise, idiot!!! We've given you exactly what you wanted <3". until the final episode which was NOT what I wanted and also exponentially better storytelling and character development than any of the ideal scenarios I'd constructed.
something deeply meta about it all. truly a chaos season for the chaos god, where the most chaotic, unexpected, transformative thing they can do is to be good.
Spent the day processing my love for this season only to have your message sum my thoughts and feelings up perfectly, thank you so very much for sending it 💖
Same as you, not for a second did I go in truly expecting anything from s2. Owen and Mobius have my heart, always will, so primarily the show was a vehicle to provide whatever crumbs of his scenes and chemistry with Tom I could get and with the start of every episode I braced for the moment that would get ruined in some way, only to be continually hit with everything I've ever wanted in a show or pairing right up until the finale. Which, while not what I would've chosen, was beautifully crafted and an almost Shakespearean tragic romance that will haunt me for the rest of my days and is still infinitely better than the nightmare scenarios I'd been floating around in my mind so at least there's that and it's impossible not to be thankful for eps 1-5 for giving content anyone could dream of and more 😅
Besides the obvious ending, I'm mostly crushed our Loki and Mobius didn't get a proper goodbye but honestly believe Loki decided to seek out s1 Mobius instead knowing s2 Mobius loved him too much to ever let his sacrifice happen and it would've been too much to bear, so having made his mind up already he at least tried to visit a version most likely to validate his choice. Just wish the Mobius now waiting until the end of time had at least a similar opportunity, but I'm just thankful he didn't lose his memories and could make his own decision that his faith in Loki is what's carried him before and will continue to do so now.
The flip of their characterization from order or chaos is exactly what has me convinced Lokius will reunite because how can they not with such an open ended future?? Even in separation they revolve around each other and they're the only ones left wanting. Mobius and his life are in ruins with nothing but the passage of time and possibility of some spent with Loki ahead while Loki's surely going to find a way to meet halfway when the choice of order has not only made him potentially the most powerful being in existence but one who spends eternity looking at the only person who ever saw him back.
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willgrahamscock · 4 months
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hi! have you heard that lokius is canon in the spanish dub?? so i looked up the hungarian dub what's the situation there and they made it worse... when loki says at the end of ep6 that "for you. for all of us" it's translated as "for you, sylvie. for all of us" (érted, syIvie. mindnyájunkért). WHY??? at least there's no syIvie in the sub translation (és ráadásul még mindig magázódnak mobiusszal...)
Na, ne is mond 😭
I don’t understand why they would even specify Sylvie because let’s be real they had no chemistry whatsoever I’m sorry. They built up his relationship with Mobius so well, and they had genuine chemistry. I remember in season one when it was finally revealed that Loki is also attracted to men, I was hoping they’d give him a male love interest. The whole Sylvie x Loki thing is so awkward, she wanted nothing to do with Loki lol She got a happy ending!!! Mobius was left heartbroken, clearly they had a much stronger bond.
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trutrustories · 5 months
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Heart of the TVA (my beloved)
(spoilers!)
HOLY SHIT!
Ok. Well this episode was something else. Absolutely brilliant.
I have to say that, so far, I´m realy loving season 2.  
First two episodes of first season were my favourite, but first two episodes of this season are amazing as well and have even more of that beautiful chemistry between Loki and Mobius. But on top of that there is just much more softness and care in their bickering.
After that I was scared of episode three, expecting something similar to Lamentis. And yeah. It´s kind of similar in the sense we are most of the time out of TVA. But instead of being on exploding moon with Loki and Sylvie we are on a cute time travel  adventure in a past and maybe it´s just me, but it had that Doctor Who vibe, cozy atmosfere and lot of Lokius content so hell yeah, I say! I´ll take it over Lamentis every fucking time.
And today? I was (once again) afraid we get something similar to episode 4 of s1. I was NOT expecting to be sitting in a chair and forgetting to breathe of uneasiness what will happen next.
And that creepy moment where Dox and all those other people died and Brad having PTSD from that exact form of tortue not being able to even MOVE, Miss Minutes smirk… that scene had me completly stunned.
And then pure terror in B-15 face? Seriously I was not expecting to be THAT invested in this plot line. I was terrified, I felt bad for them all.
Actually I was scared for ALL the characters (except Ravonna and Miss Minutes) the whole fucking time to the point I forget to drink my morning coffee! xD
The horror vibe, and all that fucking suspense?!!
The philosophical conflict beetween Loki and Sylvie and whole moral dilema?!!
The music?!
The funny and cute moments that were effortlessly woven in ?
And like a cherry on top: the relationship drama of it all?!!
Holly shit, what and epic journey! It went by so fast!
Also THIS SHOT?????
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Heart of the TVA infdeed 💖🥹
With such a great start I am litteraly PRAYING right now for last two episodes to keep this level of awesome. There was evidently lot of work and love poured into it. (more then anything Marvel gave us in a long time) and I don´t want this season to end up being bad.  I hope writers know what they are doing.
Anyway, no idea how I´ll survive whole week till ep 5.
Two hours latter and I still haven't recovered.
10/10.
My new favourite Loki episode.
(I´m sorry for messy text and bad english, but I really needed to talk about it.)
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inwantofamuse · 4 months
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I hate the constant Johnlock/Lokius comparisons.
In the first place, because of the horrible attitude of the showrunners in Sherlock especially in the last half of the series run.
In the second place, because OW/TH have a respect and a true friendship that BC/MF never seemed to have.
Thirdly, because Lokius have far better chemistry and a healthier, more mutual relationship.
I always felt Sherlock talked down to John, just not as much as he talked down to everyone else.
Fourthly, because I don't see any real similarities between John and Mobius. They are side kicks to the main character, but that's the only thing they have in common. Mobius is so much richer, layered, complex.
I really disliked Martin Freeman's John. One of the worst John Watsons ever.
Plus, the writing. I definitely have issues with both seasons of Loki in terms of plot holes, etc...but even Waldron has Moffat and Gatiss beat by a mile.
Hey, I can take a lot off showrunners, but when you insult your audience, I'm done with you.
Oh, and Elementary was a superior series, with a superior more Doyle canon Sherlock and Mycroft.
I said what I said.
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kaleidoscope-vol2 · 5 months
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“It's a special thing, because Tom and Owen, they have a real connection on screen,” Martin adds. “That chemistry is there. It's there in person. They work so well together. I think it's touching for everybody on set because you're just feeling a little bit of magic. It's the last magic that everybody will see.”
Hiddleston knows that what he’s got with Wilson as a scene partner is special, and that’s what makes this goodbye so much harder. “Owen is kind of elevated the whole series, he’s so intelligent and imaginative and witty. Mobius and Loki are kind of an odd couple but, they found a friendship. They make each other better.”
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2023 Character Wrap
Share your top ten characters of this year
Tagged by the lovely and huge talented @the-20th-century-girl thanks dear❤️
Furfur - Good Omens series
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An obsession for a character and actor that came out of nowhere and i didn't even asked for it😂i was so in love with Aziraphale even before season 2 was out and then this little demon showed up and change everything, i tried to fight back this obsession for him at first "who is that character?"i remember asking myself and why i feel so attracted to him?( You already love Aziraphale you don't need another good omens distraction i replied to myself 😂)" but i could see also the actor behind the character and that actor got me more than intrigued,i needed to know everything about him.The rest is history for me but i am glad i answered the call of my heart
All Reece Shearsmith characters in The League Of Gentlemen,Inside no 9, Psychoville and every other project he's been in and i had the chance to discover and watch it
(please be patient of me i am head over the heels for that man so of course i will add here all his characters 😂)
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Choosing an Ollie gif though because he honestly deserves the world
Aziraphale - Good Omens series
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Even from the start of this year February i think i was so excited we would have season 2 of Good Omens in summer and i was waiting to see my beloved Aziraphale again,i have an undying crush on Michael Sheen since 2019 and good omens s2 restored that flame to the fullest😂
Renfield - Renfield movie 2023
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I am sorry i am not so active now in the Renfield fandom but i still love Renfield and Nicholas Hoult with all my heart
Stede Bonnet - Our Flag Means Death
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Stede Bonnet is my sunshine,my sweet baby my fave from Our Flag Means Death but he also evolved so much this season i am so proud of him
Izzy Hands - Our Flag Means Death
Tbh i didn't like Izzy Hands in first season as much as i do now but oh god he had the best character development this season, i love him so much😭
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Spock and Christine Chapel- Star Trek Strange New Words
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Choosing both of them because their chemistry and arc this season was everything to me and was the main reason i got back watching the second season of Strange New Worlds
Dale Jennings - The Newsreader series
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Still in my heart always in my heart,i love Lestat too but Dale is the sweet bi disaster of my heart, Sam is so precious as Dale i can't hardly resist
Tim Laughlin - The Fellow Travelers series
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I already had a crush on Jonathan Bailey when Bridgerton first aired but in Fellow Travelers he looks so different,hotter? and so cute i love Tim so much
Ouroboros- Loki series season 2
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I will never stop loving Loki and Mobius as characters but Ouroboros was for me the highlight of S2,there were lots of moments where Ke Huy Quan was stealing the scene with his quirk,nerdy sweet funny persona as Ouroboros it would a crime not to love a character like this one
Tagging some lovely mutuals @edscozyblanketfort @neverswungonswingingstars @eames-with-two-roses @almost-born-in-1893 @a4chocolate @amalthea9 @whizbang-cap @gavetheflamingswordaway @lilac-paeonia @parnagfegg @haras24 @9leaguesofmirrors @ollieplimsollsgf @lapis-lazuliie @sherlockig @merry-andrews @coiled-dragon @mandycantdecide @its-all-ineffable and everyone who wants to do it
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percheduphere · 3 months
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people saying, oh it wasn't intended from the beginning so it wasn't intentional thus has to stay fanfiction bug me. like, shows can develop organically based on chemistry. they can surprise you and take you in a direction that wasn't planned but now just works. like, fucking, chandler and monica wasn't planned from the beginning! but the actors had chemistry and the writers tried it out and it became iconic. you don't throw something away just because it surprised you instead of being pre-planned; you cultivate whatever gold you find!
With Hollywood entertainment in particular, I think there is a lot of ignorance regarding how the creative process, production process, post-production process, and business all work. It is readily apparent that in Hollywood, there are many hands in the kitchen when it comes to creating a movie, documentary, or show. The "Original Intent" argument is weakest when it comes to Hollywood art, and in fact fails to be a viable argument in multiple areas. I will discuss how the "Original Intent" argument fails in Hollywood in more depth under the read more, using what I know from having worked in the industry myself as a writer. And to be honest, the fact I have to pull my private professional history out online, just to prove I'm not being delulu when it comes to the importance of queer subtext in film, pisses me the fuck off.
To be clear, since this whole discourse mess on my Tumblr is likely the result of someone thinking I'm an anti-sylki: I AM NOT AN ANTI. I have an extensive analysis on Sylvie as an integral character to the Loki series, Sylki in canon, and her relationship with Mobius here.
I agree with you: a lot of amazing art deviates from the original intention, especially writing. If deviating from original intent in the writing process did not exist, we would not have DRAFT REVISIONS, we would not have IMPROV, we would not have EDITORS (whose entire job hinges on giving the writer not only grammar corrections, but feedback on how to IMPROVE character, plot, and pacing, which inherently means making changes from the original intent!). This is to say nothing of the thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, of media scholars--with actual PhDs--who spend years of their lives performing meta-analysis to write academic papers on subject matters like this. Papers that become formal publications and contribute to how queer history is taught in universities! This is no different than academic scholars analyzing women and race representation and resistance in film. Why should analyzing queer representation and resistance in film be treated any less?
LET'S TALK ABOUT ORIGINAL CREATIVE INTENT VS POWER HIEARCHY & POLITICS IN HOLLYWOOD
For context with respect to this ask, a different Tumblr user critiqued against queer subtext in one of my posts using the "original intent" argument for the Loki series and Lokius specifically. By this logic, if original intent is always honored, then the original script for Loki's S2E5 (written by Eric Martin) would not have been NUKED by the executive powers that be at Marvel. [source] But no, the original intent was not honored, it was rejected. So how does one square the primacy of original intent with original intent being rejected by people who are not the artist but the people who manage Disney's finances?
In television, "Executive Producer" (i.e. Tom Hiddleston, Michael Waldron, Eric Martin, etc.) is a title that can be given to a writer or actor who has more creative say in the execution of a story than a regular staff writer or actor on crew. It also indicates that the writer or actor is in a much higher salary range compared to their professional peers. It does NOT mean the same thing as a CORPORATE "Producer" of Kevin Feige's level, who ultimately has the FINAL SAY on what does NOT end up on the cutting room floor. The corporate Producer must take into account the wishes of corporate's shareholders and board of directors, who are often multi-million if not multi-billion global investors who need the distribution of the product to succeed internationally in countries like China, which is very anti-LGBTQAI+. This is how a script like Eric Martin's S2E5 can be nuked and the writer can be contractually gagged from talking about its specific contents by Disney, lest they be SUED TO HELL for breaking their non-disclosure agreements (NDAs).
This doesn't even take into account politics.
In 2020, Ike Perlmutter, Chair of Marvel, "gave $575,000 to Trump For Victory, $35,500 to the Republican National Committee in April, $5600 for Texans For Ronny Jackson in February. 2019 saw him donate $248,000 to the Republican National Committee, $466,100 to Trump For Victory, $5,600 to Donald Trump For President." His wife, Laura, mirrored those donations. "In late 2016, he also gave $5,000,000 to the Great America PAC." [source] Ike was only recently laid off from his position in March 2023 [source]. Perlmutter was in a power-struggle at Marvel with Kevin Feige for years. Feige was promoted to Chief Creative Officer in 2019, which brought the power struggle to a head, ultimately contributing to Perlmutter's departure.
There is also Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, who was famously quoted during the Writers Guild of America strike for saying, “It’s very disturbing to me. We’ve talked about disruptive forces on this business and all the challenges we’re facing, the recovery from COVID which is ongoing, it’s not completely back. This is the worst time in the world to add to that disruption”
This is the worst time in the world to negotiate to pay your writers, YOUR CREATIVE LABOR FORCE, who entertained millions of people while they were stuck in their homes for 2 years, fairly?
And these are just two men in executive power at Marvel and Disney. We're not even talking about all the other board members and shareholders. You think Tom Hiddleston, Michael Waldron, and Eric Martin have any real power compared to these guys? They do not. They are peons by comparison. And these artists (despite their "Executive Producer" title) are always at odds with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers (AMPTP), who are ultimately not artists but FINANCIERS.
Here's another quote from a studio executive that occurred during the writer's strike:
"Receiving positive feedback from Wall Street since the WGA went on strike May 2, Warner Bros Discovery, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, Disney, Paramount and others have become determined to “break the WGA,” as one studio exec blatantly put it.  
To do so, the studios and the AMPTP believe that by October most writers will be running out of money after five months on the picket lines and no work.
“The endgame is to allow things to drag on until union members start losing their apartments and losing their houses,” a studio executive told Deadline. Acknowledging the cold-as-ice approach, several other sources reiterated the statement. One insider called it “a cruel but necessary evil.”" [source 1] [source 2]
Fortunately, this negative press and the WGA members' solidarity led to the WGA getting everything they demanded. I still have friends in the industry, specifically in the WGA and MPEG. A lot of them were indeed starved out. My friend who's a film editor is still unemployed because pre-production has only recently started to ramp up again and her profession is all in post. She has to wait for production to catch-up and finish in order to get work.
If the AMPTP is willing to use clearly unethical tactics to underpay their writers and actors (don't forget the SAG-AFTRA strike that joined later), do we really think members of the AMPTP (the studio execs) are willing to honor artists' original intent if the original intent may be "offensive to some viewers" and therefore can potentially cut into their financial bottom line?
We're not naive. We know the answer to this.
OUR FLAG MEANS DEATH, KILLING EVE, AND GOOD OMENS
But what about OFMD, KE, and GO? These shows are on MAX, BBC, and Amazon Prime respectively. These corporations have a different branding image than Disney. Disney touts itself as "family friendly"; (read: on-screen LGBTQAI+ affection between two lead characters is "not family friendly"). MAX and BBC's branding type also affords them the luxury of creating content for niche audiences. Disney, on the other hand, makes additional revenue through using their plethora of licenses to make toys, additions to their theme parks, and other merch. If a parent is offended that a canonically queer character like Loki has romantic love not just for Sylvie but also for Mobius (a same-sex relationship), what are the odds of parents like them not buying Disney's merchandise? We can apply this same question to Star Wars, Pixar, and any of Disney-branded animation or live action movies. How deeply can audience offense potentially cut into Disney's bottom line? If there were no discrimination taking place, we would have LGBTQAI+ representation through a lead character in any one of their licenses already. We do not, and that is a huge red flag.
In addition, these entertainment corporations (who do not tout themselves as "family friendly") generate other sources of revenue elsewhere. Netflix generates international revenue through the production of international programming like "Squid Game" and other K-dramas such as "The Glory" or Mexican shows including, "The Surrogacy" and "Haunted: Latin America". MAX is struggling. They were bought out for that reason. With AppleTV and Hulu, their target audiences are more diverse, they offer a variety of media product, and their business strategy is ultimately different from Disney. All of this grants them more freedom in what kind of characters they choose to represent, including LGBTQAI+ characters.
Remember House and Wilson from House M.D.? That show was on FOX. We know the political alignment of FOX. Dean and Castiel from Supernatural? WB Television. Both shows came out before streaming became dominant, and thus, these shows had to cater to anyone who might happen to land on their channels. When the market demands that you cater to the widest possible audience in order to generate the largest revenue, the creatives are forced to create relatively conservative artistic product. Hence, creative censorship and our long history of queer subtext.
At Nickelodeon, the artists actually had the support of corporate to move forward with Korrasami because the final season Legend of Korra was only available online. It did not air on their channel. If that had not been the case, corporate would not have approved Korrasami. However, that approval was contingent upon the artists being subtle subtle about Korra and Asami's relationship. Even in this canon ship, the animators relied on subtext for queer romance.
Not helping Disney's case is the cancellation of "The Owl House". Why was "The Owl House" canceled? It didn't fit Disney's "brand". [source]
THE FAILURES OF THE "ORIGINAL INTENT" ARGUMENT IN HOLLYWOOD
The "Original Intent" argument fails when it comes to art in Hollywood because:
Original Intent can change, and often does change, during the creative process. This applies to all forms of art, not just Hollywood.
Multiple artists are involved in pre-production, production, and post-production. At any point in this 3-part process of filmmaking, original intent can be changed for a variety of reasons.
Studio Executives, Boards of Directors, and Corporate Shareholders have more power than the artists in Hollywood. If they think a product will not make money, they will order changes accordingly.
Disney specifically touts itself as "family friendly". Its lack of a lead character (in ANY of its live-action licenses) being in an openly queer relationship with someone who presents as the same sex, is the direct result of not wanting to lose conservative audiences.
Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) are common in Hollywood and prevent artists from providing specifics regarding original intent. This is done not only to safeguard corporate's intellectual property (IP), but to also safeguard their public relations image.
THE ORIGINAL INTENT ARGUMENT WEAPONIZED
The "original intent" mindset can be either very naive or very cynical, depending on the thinker's motives for choosing this belief. Naive, in that thinking creative purity actually exists (it does not) or that oppression does not still occur in Hollywood (it does). Cynical, in that either the thinker doesn't believe in artists intentionally finding ways around mass produced arts' media censorship, which has in turn created our rich history of queer subtext in film, OR the thinker wants the "original intent" argument to invalidate a change they do not like.
The last motive is the same strategy used by fans who reject Miles Morales as being a real Spider-Man. The same strategy fans use to deny that Shuri is indeed the new Black Panther. Both are tactics used to mask racism and sexism beneath the veneer of "creative purity". Fans who have internalized racism, sexism, or queer-phobia may also use this tactic at a subconscious level to protect themselves emotionally from disappointment. Finally, there are fans who use this argument to invalidate another ship, usually a queer ship that cannot be formally canonized because of corporate studio power.
Regardless of the reasoning, using this argument is frequently insidious because it perpetuates straight white male dominance in media representation.
PERSONAL LIVED EXPERIENCE
I'm an old poc queer and have worked in Hollywood long enough to know that the writers' original vision rarely ever--IF EVER--pans out as originally intended. If you ever sit through a movie and wonder why the story feels so weird in certain parts, I can guarantee you that about 2/5ths of the time, a corporate producer stepped in and messed with the original story in post-production (usually in an poor, over-worked editor's dark editing bay) and ordered reshoots the director may not have agreed with.
I've also worked in the industry long enough to know that it is an absolutely toxic work environment in which women, people of color, and queer people still struggle to get a creative foothold anywhere. My first experience pitching a script to a prospective agent involved being asked to meet at a hotel for drinks. We didn't talk about my writing at all. What I thought would be a pitch meeting was actually the writer's version of the "Hollywood casting couch". Yes, I was propositioned. No, nothing happened to me. I walked out. This happened to me in June 2008. It was not my last experience. The "Me Too" movement that came years later in 2017 was in response to situations I have encountered like this.
Those of us who succeed are very rare, and 97% of the time, the executive staff is very, very white and male. There is absolutely oppression and exploitation of all sorts still happening in Hollywood. I fucking lived it and continue to have nightmares about it.
QUEER SUBTEXT STILL EXISTS
Thus, to deny queer subtext's validity as an art form and to only accept the words of those who are either in power or limited in what they can say because of those in power, undermines not only the artists' efforts to tell the story they want to tell but cannot tell explicitly, it also undermines queer joy and queer resistance in cinema. And yes, sometimes those artists are cis straight white male allies who want to tell these stories because they simply make sense for the characters. These people are the artists, not the financiers.
It's more mature to embrace, or at least leave alone, the loud joy others experience from shipping and performing meta-analysis instead of publicly pissing on them with the profoundly weak and ignorant argument of "original intent". Don't mess with me on this. The number of scripts I have worked on that completely warped from what I wanted, and then to have my writing credit removed or stolen, still makes me sick. Yes, I'm bitter, but I'm also glad I left.
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buttercups-song · 6 months
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Alright, so I’ve seen a couple of hot takes that there is no queerbaiting in the Loki show (and what’s even funnier that mcu has never queerbaited) because Loki is canonically queer… and like… alright so there’s no queerbaiting in spn because technically speaking cas is queer? Queerbaiting is a marketing strategy so even if we ignore what’s in the show, the chemistry between actors and some truly insane acting choices, the Loki show is queerbaiting because of how it was marketed, and especially how the first season was marketed. Before the show aired we were told that Loki was going to have multiple love interests, we were told that sophia di martino was playing loki (and told so in a way that suggested that she was playing ‘our’ loki). There is a part of the soundtrack that is literally named ‘lokius’. Even before this season started airing the marketing heavily focused on the relationship between Loki and mobius, reassuring us that Our Loki would be with Our mobius.
And alright I’ll give them that they confirmed that loki is bi/pan in episode three and let’s ignore that the confirmation was two seconds long, pretty vague, had no impact on the plot nor characters and wasn’t mentioned ever again. Ok. Fine. Honestly my much bigger gripe is with how they handled Loki’s gender.
Which is to say that they fucked up. Despite Loki being gender-fluid in the comics and despite how the show was marketed, the text of the show heavily suggests that both our Loki and Sylvie are cis. Ok so the arrest report in the credit says: “sex: fluid”. Which is completely different from saying (and showing) that Loki is gender-fluid. What is shown in the show (or rather in the credits, which let’s be real almost no one bothers to read) is that Loki’s sex is fluid… which yes he’s a shapeshifter. That’s not representation, they don’t say that Loki is trans, the fans can read it that way, but disney doesn’t have to fear backlash from conservatives because Loki in the show is not gender-fluid, he’s a shapeshifter (who doesn’t shapeshift for some reason). Sylvie literally says that she was born a “goddess of mischief”, every single other Loki is shocked by the idea of a ‘female version’ of them. It’s supposed to be a #girlboss moment but it’s not! It reads like every Loki is a (cis) man! And sure you can have a head canon that they’re shocked that Sylvie is exclusively presenting as a woman, or that Sylvie is not cis but obviously was born a goddess. But that’s not what’s in the text. From episode one when talking about the variant they’re hunting everyone in the tva uses ‘he’ pronoun when referring to them. Why? All they know is that they’re hunting a loki, so if Loki is gender-fluid (or even if their ‘sex is fluid’ as referred to in the show) why assume that the variant they’re looking for is a he? (Probably for the extremely obvious plot twist when Sylvie shows up). I’m actually so mad about this, gender-fluid representation is so rare and they took a canonically gender-fluid character and did what?
There’s so much queerbaiting in the show! And they know what they’re doing! It’s not a coincidence that they’re leaning so much into loki and mobius’ banter! It’s not a coincidence that in the First episode (!) of season two we get a scene in which Loki before pruning himself goes “if I don’t make it back, I…” which is meant to sound like a beginning of a confession! Which was a beginning of a confession last season when it was directed towards sylvie! It’s almost exactly the same scene! But let’s be real, he probably was going to say something like: “if I don’t make it back, find sylvie”.
Why are we still getting this treatment in 2023? (because it clearly pays well) If they didn’t want to give us good queer rep, why market it as such? Loki is queer in the comics, he wasn’t canonically queer in the movies (despite the immaculate vibes). They could have left it alone. I’m sure that many people still would have shipped Loki and mobius because of the incredible chemistry between actors and (let’s be real) that just how fandoms work, but that wouldn’t count as queerbaiting, because again that’s a marketing strategy.
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lokitvsource · 6 months
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Loki Season 2 Reviews Are In
The first reviews are in for Loki Season 2 and they are glowing for the most part. 
Critics who saw the first four episodes early praised the show's cast and smart science-fiction story, but it has not come without its flaws it seems. 
Comicbook.com's Brandon Davis called the series "a thrilling time-traveling mystery:"
"'Loki' Season 2 rules. The first 4 episodes have a thrilling time-traveling mystery and charm. Some of the TVA sci-fi jargon is hard to follow. The cast is tremendous together. The sets are great. Overall, it’s awesome. Hoping Episodes 5 & 6 stick the landing!"
He added newcomer Ke Huy Quan is "brilliant," complimenting the actor's chemistry with the returning cast:
"Yes, Ke Huy Quan is brilliant in 'Loki'. His character has a key role in Season 2. He brings so much charm and joy to this show, brilliant chemistry with the rest of the cast."
Erik Davis from Fandango was similarly positive, remarking the series "continues to be [his] favorite MCU show:"
"I LOVE 'Loki'! I’ve watched the first 4 episodes & #Loki continues to be my favorite MCU show. This season has a more frantic pace to it, which keeps tensions high the entire time. Still brainy & weird w/ great chemistry among its cast. Ke Huy Quan is a big scene stealer of course, but the story - full of time travel, timelines, trickery & a guy named Timely - is reminiscent of Marvel Studios at its best & most entertaining. Eps 5 & 6 are gonna be wild!"
Phase Zero's Jamie Jirak pointed to the "direction and cinematography" as particular high points of the series premiere, also singing Ke Huy Quan's praises:
"I had a blast at the 'Loki' launch event. I only stayed for the first episode, because I want to remain a woman of the people on  Phase Zero but I LOVED IT. The direction and cinematography blew me away. I missed Tom and Owen so much. Ke Huy Quan MVP!!"
Jenna Anderson from Comicbook.com called Loki Season 2 "[her] favorite thing Disney+ has released this year:"
"'Loki' Season 2 is, by far, my favorite thing Disney+ has released this year. The cinematography is outstanding, and the cast does a great job of carrying what could be a very overwhelming plot. It’s not flawless, but I dig it."
She also jumped on the Ke Huy Quan train, saying "[he] is absolutely wonderful:"
"As a Mobius and Ravonna girlie, I’m very happy with where their storylines seem to be headed in 'Loki' Season 2. And unsurprisingly, Ke Huy Quan is absolutely wonderful."
Cinema Blend's Erik Swann used words like "kooky, charming, funny, and sweet," describing the series as "must-see TV:"
"He Who Remains is gone, but 'Loki' remains must-see TV! I've seen Season 2's first four episodes, and they're just as kooky, charming, funny and sweet as one would hope. Eric Martin takes on EP duties and skillfully builds on the show's mythology. Fans are in for a wild ride."
Decider's Alex Zalben pointed to some shortcomings of the streaming show's first four episodes, making mention of "it feel[ing] a little more like TVA: The Series featuring Loki," but still called it a "blast to watch:"
"I have some issues with 'Loki' Season 2 (based on the first 4 eps). Direction isn't as strong, it feels a little more like TVA: The Series Featuring Loki, the Jonathan Majors of it all. But it's still a blast to watch, and Ke Huy Quan is the perfect addition to the cast."
Brobible senior writer Eric Italiano wrote, "Loki reminds us what makes the MCU tick," calling the show a "true post-Endgame highlight:"
"'Loki' reminds us what makes the MCU tick is merging a character with creators who understand their tone. S2 epitomizes that, as the God of Mischief's journey feels absurd yet important -- his world gonzo but deeply felt and real. The series stands as a true post-'Endgame' highlight."
Chris Killian from Comicbook.com was just as high on the series, opining that Loki "continues to be the highest quality Marvel content out of the D+ series:
"So I’ve seen the first few episodes of the second season of 'Loki' and it continues to be the highest quality Marvel content out of the D+ series. Tom and Owen’s chemistry remains top notch but the real MVP is Ke Huy Quan who is - no surprise - fantastic. Steals every scene."
Screenrant's Rob Keyes - who made it clear he "didn't love [the] first season [of Loki]" - said Season 2 is "better, faster, and takes bigger swings:"
"Watched the first four (out of six) episodes for 'Loki' season 2 and loved it. I didn't love first season and this is better, faster, and takes bigger swings. Depending how they followup the WILD fourth episode, it might be the best Marvel Studios show on Disney+. Much needed."
Kirsten Acuna from Insider was not as wild about the series' second effort, noting it was "a bit tough to follow at times:"
"Watched the first 4 eps of 'Loki' Season 2. Not exactly what I expected given Season 1's end. Love seeing Hiddleston + Wilson back together, but it's a bit tough to follow at times. (Had to rewatch some of it twice.) Too much McDonald's. Ke Huy Quan is the show's best addition."
And Nicole Drum (staff writer at Comicbook.com) voiced her thoughts on the show's various "hiccups" but said it was "an absolute must-watch even with its issues:"
"'Loki' Season 2 is still the best thing at the MCU party but Season 2 definitely has its hiccups, especially with pacing, and doesn’t quite live up to Season 1. It’s cinematography and direction are EPIC, though, and it is an absolute must-watch even with its issues."
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gyarucoded · 5 months
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gimme a sec i need to talk about this !!
so i saw a long ass reblog under an anti-sylki blog that started off as something like "actually loki & sylvie has good romance chemistry meanwhile loki & mobius doesn't have any romance chemistry at all"🤓– and in this moment i went "alright best frien i'm not reading all that" then went to block instead of arguing.
didn't try reading that bullshit of a post further either just to anger myself, i know better.
i especially didn't wanna argue cuz i think that was a child..??? (assuming from the miracoulus ladybug theme cuz no adult in their right mind enjoys that trash) but if i'm wrong that just makes it worse tbh, like grown ass ppl who srsly think toxic relationships should be the example of peak romance needs their brain to be studied fr.
i usually try to be respectful for others' opinion but i genuinely can't see where this opinion comes from.
makes no goddam sense to me.
maybe it's cuz i can't view things through a heterosexual lens, maybe not.
who knows?
but...(i won't make this abt lokius but focusing more on the "loki & sylvie" part) this made me wonder like...
what do sylkie shippers even post about?
no i won't check it out myself to spare myself from the headache but do they go "omg today episode's syIkie crumbs was so lovely dovely 🥺" and the crumbs in question is them disagreeing on almost everything and sylvie wanting to avoid loki as much as she can & constantly seeming to be angry at him.
sure, in s1 they did have a couple of cutesy romantic moments like being under blankets despite of them being supposedly immune to cold or the literal kiss but, it truly doesn't take a huge analyzation to realize that this "relationship" became one sided, even in that one little moment when they had to hold hands, sylvie immidiately goes "don't overthink it" like omgggsfg💀😭 and it's also clear that loki eventually got the hint, in ep3 he doesn't try to be with her anymore or gets emotional with her, he silently gave up.
not to mention loki avoiding to mention the kiss, when appearantly the two has nothing to hide? 😕
i don't know where this is gonna be heading off but if they randomly switch up after all this character & dynamic development then i have no hope for marvel's writing team cuz that would basically create a plot hole.
like aside from the psuedo-incest, that used to bother me in season 1 era but now i am concerned more about how this "ship" overall has no appeal, yet some of these ppl genuinely thinks it can work healthily between them and that ppl who are against it are just "petty that their gay ship isn't canon" when there's MORE to this.
in season 2 there's absolutely *nothing* happening with them that would make us, the audience, root for them to be together as a couple like i'm sry.
so yeah you can say i'm doing too much and too crazy over a fictional tv show (yes i know that babes i have full self awareness) but i literally cannot stress enough about how unhealthy it is to think that this is how a good romantic chemistry works.
based on a syIkie shipper's views: we could technically say that me + that one co-worker of mine who we always have disagreements on political stuff with & dislikes me for no reason is my "lover"... since we wanna pretend this is how love works 😀😀 no?
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