#absynthe's meta

[absynthe--minded]

in the midst of a long-awaited ask about institutional critique in Tolkien’s works I find myself fascinated by the fact that there’s not a lot of inherent worth in being royalty in the Silm and the Histories, and as this is sort of tangential to the points I’m going to be making in that ask, I figured I should talk about it here

specifically, in The Lord of the Rings there’s real importance to the fact that Aragorn isn’t just a really cool guy he’s got spiritual bonds to and dominion over the land? there’s prophecies to fulfill and unjust systems to break down and justice to be done and restoration that’s got to happen, and Aragorn (as I’ve said before in other posts) is of course a moral person who chooses to do the right thing and who has had decades of training to be a good diplomat and a good King, but also, it matters that he’s the heir. LotR is about Frodo and Sam (and neither of them are nobility, that’s Merry and Pippin, Frodo might be landed gentry but he doesn’t have an inherited title and Sam is 100% common-born) but in the background it matters that the monarchy be populated by good people because otherwise the monarchy is fucked

but in the Silm, where we get maybe five or six total non-noble characters of any importance (Círdan, Aerin, Sador, Nellas, Beleg, Bereg potentially), the monarchy is kind of ineffective when it comes to... well. basically everything. Manwë might be king of Arda but he can’t stop Morgoth from destroying the Trees. Thingol sits in Menegroth feeling smug but he’s hiding behind Melian’s Girdle. Fëanáro is High King for what might as well be all of five minutes and he uses that High Kingship to fuck everything up and make his personal problems the whole world’s problems. Findekáno’s most heroic moments (facing off against baby Glaurung, rescuing Maitimo, presumably assisting during the Bragollach) happen when he’s still a prince. Once Morgoth wins everything enough to call himself king he’s basically on the way out. Findaráto and Turukáno and Artaresto/Orodreth make their marks as essentially ineffective outside their very limited sphere of influence, with Turukáno both refusing to offer help to Húrin and refusing to heed Ulmo’s words of warning. Findaráto goes further than that - he really only becomes truly heroic when he gives up his kingship, realizing that there are things more important and more honorable than maintaining his life of relative comfort and luxury and influence.

Nolofinwë is sort of the lone exception, winning the Dagor Aglareb and reunifying the Noldor as best he can and introducing a few centuries of relative peace and prosperity for his people, but unlike Aragorn there’s nothing about what he does that truly necessitates him being High King. If he’d been a charismatic populist leader or a community organizer he could have conceivably done a lot of what he does in canon.

and I find this interesting because this is a story where everyone - and I do mean everyone - has some kind of tie to the nobility or to the ruling class, and yet one of the messages it repeatedly returns to is “the nobility and the ruling class are fallible, they are prone to error, they are just as flawed as anyone else, and when they fuck up they fuck up spectacularly”. Fëanáro doesn’t have some kind of deep spiritual tie to his people, they decided to follow him because they liked him. Thingol declared himself king of Beleriand and possibly arranged for his most significant political rival to die in battle, RIP Denethor of the Laiquendi but he ultimately doesn’t act in the best interest of Beleriand as a whole at any point.

the people who do the most good - Túrin, Beren, Findekáno - are acting outside of their roles as the heirs to great houses, and often are forced to choose between loyalty to the governmental system that gave them power or their hereditary office and doing what’s right. Túrin goes back to Dor-lómin and instead of freeing everyone from slavery and starting a resistance movement and restoring his family name to a place of honor he makes everything objectively worse; his heroism is best showcased when he’s under an assumed name and away from his identity as the heir of Húrin Thalion. Beren has to abandon Dorthonion for the sake of his own survival, and he never reclaims it, he finds worth and value in a life beyond striving to save a legacy that cannot be saved by just one man. Findekáno goes against the political best interests of his father when he saves Maitimo from Angamando - even though this act of selfless altruism and deep love is ultimately the right choice, in the moment he’s risking his own life for the heir of a hostile house and he has no idea how this will end up.

there’s something really compelling about the fact that the story Tolkien wrote that’s praised as glorifying the heroism of everyday people is the one about the spiritual renewal inherent in the fulfillment of prophecy, and the story he wrote about a bunch of bitchy nobles all fighting each other is the one that’s most ambivalent about whether or not there’s anything special about the people in charge.

#tolkien #silmarillion #silmarillion meta #lord of the rings #lord of the rings meta #absynthe's meta

[hopeless-eccentric]

re: Éowyn, I think the OTHER problem is that patriarchy is inconsistent in Tolkien’s universe.

Númenor seems to have developed it as an institutional force independently (LaCE’s whole section about Noldorin gender roles indicates that even if the author is a bit sexist the elves don’t seem to be, even down to an absence of a requirement that marriage be heterosexual*, and Haleth and Andreth respond to some gendered pressures but they don’t seem to be systemic) but challenges it through the legalization of absolute primogeniture. Despite this, Gondor and Rohan have their own versions of patriarchal norms, in contrast to Harad and potentially to Umbar. The Shire is written as a land of benevolent sexism, and yet Merry never questions Éowyn’s capacity to murder things with a sword when he realizes he’s been riding with a woman. So we’re left with this nebulous thing that obviously exists and impacts the life of one of the most significant female characters in the text, but that also clearly exists in a way that’s different from our own modern conceptions of patriarchy as all-encompassing and global even as the author isn’t thinking too hard. I wonder if a more feminist LotR written with, say, input from Joy Davidman, would have featured the non-Gondorian Aragorn calling out the patriarchy, but that’s simply because Tolkien tends to do those sorts of things in response to criticism (see Gimli).

* LaCE-compliant elvish marriage being queer-friendly is sort of my personal soapbox, I apologize

ok, so ill admit we're starting to edge out of my area of (if you can call it that) expertise since ive done the most research on the real-world mythological/literary connections within the Men (celts and anglo-saxons specifically, lord above ive read so many eye-splitting middle english poems in the last few months), but i would love to hear more about the stuff with gimli, which i havent heard about before!

also for the sake of transparency im about 2/3 of the way through the silmarillion until my local library's hold comes in so im a bit new here

so something ive done a lot of reading/writing on myself is that patriarchy in rohan/gondor is very closely tied to war and "warrior culture," i.e. this concept that glory via violence should be celebrated above all else and the association of this idea with masculinity. this is more prevalent in rohan than gondor, but tolkien writes that that the presence of a budding warrior culture in gondor is some sort of "fall" from a more peaceful (and implicitly wiser) culture of the past, which very well could be a reference to a more Elvish, numenorean culture (if im reading your ask correctly in assuming that numenor's culture isnt quite as patriarchal as we see in later ages)

so the thing that gets complicated is that these ideals of peace, wisdom, the arts, intellectualism, etc over war are strongly gendered. in The Feminine Principle in Tolkien, Menalie Rawls (who also saved my ass on that paper god bless her) suggests that a lot of the aforementioned traits associated with this "better" (i.e. aligning more with tolkien's internal moral compass for the book) numenorean-refugee culture are strongly in the feminine category, while the warrior culture stuff sits in the masculine category

so that leads to a bit of a weird point. i think a lot of patriarchy as we see it in lotr is related to this idea of the descendants of numenor falling away from their roots and becoming more hypermasculine (the thesis of Rawls's paper is essentially that tolkien's heroes are either expected to have an internal balance of gendered traits or an external one where they balance their gender expression with strong opposing forces to become their most heroic self, i.e. legolas and gimli, eowyn and faramir, varda and manwe, beren and luthien, etc) as opposed to their more balanced, and therefore, in the eyes of the book, "better" past. essentially, like the warrior-worship, patriarchy seems to be an adverse effect that centuries of war can have on a culture

the weird part of it is that i dont know if the whole fall from a golden age thing was supposed to include patriarchy as a symptom of societal decline or just had it coincidentally because tolkien personally associated femininity with peace. it feels like a bit of a chicken or the egg situation honestly

but, like most of tolkien scholarship, this all completely falls to pieces when you try to apply it to the hobbits. i would hazard a guess that the hobbits do a lot of weird shit that doesnt click with the rest of the world (i.e. golf, wristwatches, a mailman) because they're supposed to be the closest thing tolkien has to a normal english human reader in his worlds, so they probably dont have any views/cultural norms outside what someone in the rural england of his childhood would have. best i've got is a reason, but not an explanation

in certain pockets of the world, i think the culture of patriarchy is pretty well justified. however, i agree that there are some major inconsistencies. the hobbits, as per usual, break any theory you try to apply universally across the text. the crowning of aragorn, which is meant to represent gondor's rebuilding to its former glory, has very little to do with how women are treated (which does make me lean more towards the "patriarchy just came along with tolkien liking peace and not warrior culture while also gendering those two concepts" theory now that i think of it). if anything, femininity is treated better after aragorn's crowning (i.e. focus on healing, very gender-balanced king, rewarding small heroes, marrying an Elf, rewarding faramir, tree blooming again, so much celtic symbolism stuff i dont have time to get into but they were considered effeminate as well, etc). but that's how the concept of femininity is treated which is. yknow. different than actual living breathing women

so point is, 1) there's some insight onto why gender concepts look different among different cultures, especially with Men 2) hobbits confuse me

#thank you for the ask! #lotr #lord of the rings #lotr meta #absynthe--minded

[monstrousgourmandizingcats]

Okay what’s your second most controversial Silm take?

Morgoth is not an interesting character. Not because he is not interesting, but because he is not a character.

My feelings on Morgoth are basically those of the people in that one post about Palpatine (a post I think back to often). He truly is the devil, an archetypal or (sorry Tolkien) allegorical figure devoid of human qualities. Someone like Maeglin, like Darth Vader, is simply an evil man, who suffers from his own evil as evil men in real life do, but Morgoth is such a perfect symbolic stand-in for pure unleaded malice that he actually becomes less interesting if you treat him like Just Another Bad Guy.

So my lack of any interest in or patience for Angbang, the Black Book of Arda, and other Morgoth apologist type fandom currents isn’t really an objection to villain apologism in general, it’s an objection to trying to make a deliberately one-dimensional “idea of evil” into a proper character.

I’m bored at work. Send me asks about my hot takes and incendiary opinions.  

#j.r.r. tolkien #morgoth #meta #give me love give me memes #absynthe--minded

[arofili]

I actually AM curious to hear your mixed feelings on soul bonds, not least because you’re the first person I’ve ever talked to in the fandom who didn’t think they were incredibly awesome with zero downsides and I love hearing different perspectives. Also your meta is incredibly well done even if I often come to different conclusions? So. Consider this an excuse, I guess, to call out soul bonds?

i do think they are generally really cool and fun!! and my mixed feelings really comes down to an extension of my mixed feelings on shipping in general? being aro does that to ya.

i think, sometimes, soul bonds are written too similarly to soul mates for me, and i have a Known Thing against soul mate stories. the idea of relationships being “meant to be” rubs me the wrong way and i feel like soul bonds can (not always! but sometimes) confirm that narrative.

the intricacies that get me, too - are soul bonds confined to marriage? if so, that’s always going to feel weird to me as an aromantic person, even if it’s internally consistent within the story and otherwise “unproblematic” and that’s entirely a personal thing. but if not how do you distinguish? what counts a relationship “real” or intense enough to warrant a soul bond? can you choose to be married and not soul bond? once you establish a bond, can it ever go away? what happens when the person dies? what happens if you don’t want to have the bond anymore? what happens if you want to bond with someone else? (these aren’t questions meant to discredit the idea, just things that i think about and don’t see explored often.)

i see people talk about soul bonds and adjacent concepts (like mind melding or body sharing) in contexts of “it’s like True Love but even more” and any sort of relationship hierarchy is always going to be a turn-off (haha) for me. i already feel like i’m not going to be able to access True Love, and adding more exclusivity on top of that is making me..hm, less likely.

also, i saw in your response to my comment that started this conversation that you saw soul bonds as differentiating between mortal and elvish marriages - and i think that my take on elves is often a lot more human than yours! maybe that’s a failing in my own writing, but in trying to relate to tolkien’s elves i think i project human relationships, feelings, and processes where they needn’t be, necessarily. the inhumanity of elves is really cool, but i think my focus in that area is more biological than cultural.

but in general, the idea is really neat and i do enjoy reading about it, quite often! i like the concepts of being connected to someone telepathically, and being able to open/close that bond at will is especially interesting. but in my own fic i might shy away from it (or get into weird exceptions) because of my own hesitations.

so yeah, not so much of a meta calling out soul bonds but more of a personal squeamishness when it comes to placing incredibly high value on one specific kind of relationship. oops!

#djhdfjdh i have no idea if this makes Any sense or is even remotely related to soul bonds #oops! #abysnthe minded #answers #it just like...compounds ideas that i already find uncomfortable? if that makes sense? #silm #silm meta #my meta #kind of lmao #tmi anna #absynthe minded

[theneverfadinglands]

Fingolfin and Anairë, she was random. Anairë was the last one I made, because nobody looked right. I'm pleased with her after all. I imagine her looking distant and cold, but it's only first impression. However she looks stunning on throne.

Fingon, I think he look fierce and valiant. Determmined to do something foolish heroic today. He was the only one I had clear idea in my head how I imagine him. It took my long time to get him right. I then developed all the others from Fingon, Fingolfin and Lalwen.

Ok, I love all my Fingolfinweans, they are all perfect. Turgon look serious, he look royal and kingly. I plan Elrond to look quite similar to Turgon, but with darker skin - taking after Elwing's family.

Aredhel look joyous, smart and alert. She look similar to Lalwen. I really love her design. I can see her cantering her horse in forests chasing quarry, her hair braided and decorated with gems and blue feathers. Laughing fiercely.

Argon is the last one. Poor forgotten Argon. We don't have many informations about him. I hadn't any idea how he should look like, but I love how he turned out. He look quite dreamy and similar to Aredhel and Lalwen. I feel Fingolfinweans are quite outdoorsy family, good at hunting, dying valiantly, kinging. I think Argon is the artist of the family. He dislike his royal duties much like Maglor. He is introverted and doesn't talk much, good observer and talented at osanwë. I think he looks like painter. Painting mostly experimental surrealistic (and similar abstract styles) paintings.

Bonus: Idril and Tuor

Tuor always reminded me of Thor and he kind of look like Thor in my head. Big, strong, blonde man with beard and stormy eyes, but in my head he is more tan and his blue eyes pop out more. I love Idril's ethereal look, her innocent eyes. She look more like Elenwë's side of family. I don't have Elenwë yet, but I think she has eyes like Idril. I think Idril took from Argon in personality.

All my elves kind of start to look similar, but now I'm questioning if it isn't their intent? All elves suffering from same face syndome. All being gorgeous, but after a while you are happy to see man's face, because men are diverse. Elves are all so sterile and unreachable in their distant beauty. I wonder if elves envy men their diversity, all the body and face shapes and different coloring. Now after reading @absynthe--minded meta about POC Beren I headcanon him as black. I think Lúthien fell in love with his unique features and skin tone, because he was handsome and different, not looking like 1093764th random elf in Doriath. Be prepared for Beren I plan to make their family too!

#fingolfinweans #fingolfin #fingon #anaire #turgon #aredhel #argon #idril celebrindal #idril #tuor #artbreeder #tolkien #silmarillion #lotr #elves #noldor #nolofinweans

[ardaneedsmorepride]

Announcing Arda Needs More Pride, a bimonthly event aimed at celebrating LGBT+ fanworks in the Tolkien fandom!

Every January, March, May, July, September, and November, the 16th-19th of the month, we’ll be holding a four-day positivity event for all fanworks focused on LGBT+ characters in the book-centric Tolkien fandom. Headcanons, fanart, graphics, podcasts, meta - you name it, we’ll take it! Our long term goal is to foster an environment of positivity and pride in the fandom, since there’s not really anything aimed specifically at fanworks with LGBT+ characters or centering those creators. This is meant to be a low-pressure, low-stakes event; even simple moodboards or one-sentence headcanons are accepted.

The four days are “themed” to the four canonical Ages, with the 16th being the First and the 19th being the Fourth and finishing out the cycle. If you miss one month, you’ve got five more chances throughout the year to submit something, and we’re always checking tags and mentions!

Works meant to feature in the event should be tagged #ardaneedsmorepride or #arda needs more pride, or mention us @ardaneedsmorepride!

If you’ve got questions, our FAQ is here and our ask box is here. This event is being modded by @absynthe--minded and @thefifthbattle; if we need more mods we’ll put the call out!

#silmarillion #tolkien #lord of the rings #the hobbit #the silmarillion

[finweanladiesweek]

Hi! Ok so, I’ve been getting into the Silm and lore recently and all the community ships and all, and I’ve been wondering, why do people ship Maedhros and Fingon? I don’t mean to offend, and I’m sorry for asking you if you don’t want, or are not comfortable answering. I’m just curious because, yes, it’s a cute ship, but I’ve always found the cousins part unsettling. Sorry again if I said something bad. I guess it’s just a taboo thing for me.

Hi anon,

This question has been answered many, many times, so I apologize if the response I'm linking you is a little exasperated in tone.

@absynthe--minded has written an excellent meta on why people ship Russingon. It says everything I would have to say on this subject.

The tl;dr is "they are very homoerotic and have a moving love story and also the cousins thing isn't as big of a deal as you think it is." Though of course if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But this question gets asked A Lot and not always in good faith so Russingon shippers do get annoyed by it.

Hope this helps.

-Mod A

#anon #answers #a little amused you came to *this* blog with this question #considering this is a blog explicitly Not About finwean dudes #but no harm done lol #mod a

[stormxpadme]

Okay since I’m now officially reviving my 12 years old LOTR fanfiction series in the hope of finally FINISHING that fuckin’ thing, I want more LOTR stuff on my dash to keep me inspired. I just really don’t like the Hobbit movies though, not my cup of tea, and while I like the books very much, my main interest is focused on the movies. Which tag do I follow for pretty caps, edits, gifs and a little meta of mostly LOTR 1-3? Yeah yeah yeah, I’m 15 years plus too late, but I can’t be the only one left here ... Anyone good a good blog recommendation? @absynthe--minded​, any idea?

#lotr #lord of the rings #and all tolkien lore #orlando bloom #viggo mortensen #halp a gal out #fanfiction is mostly aragorn arwen legolas oc centric #many elves involved #glorfindels son i created among them #lil faramir and eowyn on the side #i've started with glorfindel's son being born #went from legolas meeting his significant other #to the ring war #a crisis for aragorn's new rule after #and now we're 20 years after the fourth age began #plan is to write another story or two when they deal with the last of mordor #and the dead marshes #and then another jump forward to legolas and the rest leaving middle earth #after aragorn's death #like i got that whole thing down in my head #i just need something to carry me inspired through nanowrimo #this is one of my longest ass series #we're easily at a million words already #this deserves an ending #this thing is so old i still have my jason isaacs as thranduil fancast in place #and you can bet your ass that's not gonna change

[squirrelwrangler]

Meta question. Elves, elven cultures and affection, physical contact. Your opinion on those.

Not the strictest adherent to LaCE but I like it more than most fans- I like elves that are almost all strictly monogamous and where I never have to deal with adultery fics. Now as @absynthe--minded recently stated in an almost identical meta post, that means we can remove that very recent Western cultural aversion to displays of physical affection or even contact. “There was only one bed” - well if you’re in most Western historical periods or fantasy based off them, especially medieval, that’s the norm for families and others. Friends are crying and hugging each other all the time. And there doesn’t seem to be a divide between mortals and elves on that. Will have to look back through the Silm and Lord of the Rings, but I don’t recall a ‘elves uncomfortable to be hugged by these humans’ schtick. Now for me- I do see mortal men as having a stronger nudity taboo than elves.

But bros don’t need to be sitting six feet away from each other in a pool.

As for sex- and especially public sex- is something I do play around with in my Ingwë fics - because it is a private act between two individuals - but in Ingwë and Ravennë’s case are operating on different political demands and a slightly older cultural matrix and thus why Ingwion gets embarrassed (okay he gets embarrassed really because of frequency).

Now the question of corporal punishment in child-rearing practices of both men and elves and if there are differences..ooh that might be a good if thorny subject to explore. Who spanks their kids and who thinks it’s not done?

[absynthe--minded]

Let me ask, why do you ship Russingon? I never got the appeal of the ship myself, so I am interested in why its so popular

so the thing is that for me, this is very much two questions rather than one. I'm not someone who ships things just because of vibes or because I think the characters are hot together. My interest in romantic subplots that aren't fundamentally integrated into character motivation and plot is basically Zero - I actually have to think that the canon narrative is enhanced by the story of these two people. Either their love explains or enriches their motivations, or the actual plot hinges upon their connection, or both. And this isn't just positive, either - I'm fascinated by gothic romances where the main pair are drawn together but shouldn't be (think Labyrinth, Crimson Peak, The Phantom of the Opera). Russingon isn't one of those romances for me? But the point is that if something is important to the plot I will become invested in it, assuming the plot is well-written.

this leaves us in a space where the two questions are "Why do you think this is canon or canonically compliant?" and "Why do you then actively engage with this plot element as a favorite part of the story?" and I'm really going to be able to only answer one effectively.

the first question, why I think it's canon (not canonically compliant, actually properly canon, with evidence) is an extremely long explanation that touches on narrative recurrence, Tolkien's preferred story beats and inspirations, the folkloric motif of the Homecoming Husband, midcentury British queer literature and how it differed from American queer literature, Tolkien's affiliation with people like Iris Murdoch, W. H. Auden, and Mary Renault, Aragorn's green stone, and a lot of in-depth analysis in the close reading fashion. my very best summation of why I think it's canon is that Tolkien does a lot with the same tropes over and over again, and Fingon's rescue of Maedhros is in tandem with Sam's rescue of Frodo and Lúthien's rescue of Beren as central points upon which the whole Legendarium turns, drawing on the myth of Orpheus alongside the Homecoming Husband. I will happily go into more detail in another post but that's really not the question you asked, so suffice it to say that at this point I think there's more evidence in favor of canon Russingon than in favor of the idea that it's simply fan-preferred.

the second question - why I engage with it - is a lot more straightforward. I like these people, and I like their struggles, I like following their stories. I like the way their lives make more sense when you examine their actions through a lens of love and long-term commitment, and I like the complications in their family that arise out of their bond. I like the way they complement each other (Maedhros's careful planning vs Fingon's ebullient reckless hope, Fingon's determination to succeed vs Maedhros's stoic pessimism) and I like the way they're invested in one another and they work together. Every part of their lives is more interesting and more enhanced by their contact and their interactions, and their stories take on this incredible tragic quality that fascinates me endlessly.

I am trying to keep this brief lmao but uh. the truth is I just really really like them? their story is amazing and I'm glad to spend time chronicling it and talking about it.

#replies #eamonorus-blog #tolkien #RUSSINGON #absynthe's meta #the homecoming husband conspiracy board is REAL

[diversetolkien]

more questions

Just for those who’re following or just reading, this is a continuation of THIS META regarding Galadriel and colonization. I would recommend reading that before you read this!

@absynthe--minded  Sorry I’ve taken so long to respond. This week has been a very busy week especially since the semester is coming to an end. I’ve also been dealing small health issues, so I wasn’t able to answer this as quickly as I would have liked.  That said, as before, your questions are bolded, while mine are not!

first off, thank you so much for your responses! I’m glad to be able to discuss this in a way that doesn’t involve everybody getting angry, especially since one of my goals at least is to achieve a better understanding of other perspectives on a somewhat problematic source material. I’ll concede immediately that you’re right, and that whether or not Galadriel was actually ruling she was looked to as a person of authority, and she benefited from being seen that way. And I genuinely want to discuss, not attack - my end goal is to try to reach a better understanding of your view of her character, which is something I’ve found both worth my time as a fan and difficult to grasp because of various canonical elements. Hence my continued discussion, which is meant respectfully and considering you as a worthy and equal academic partner.

You’re very welcome :) I try not to open up my blog to certain types of anger, mainly just respectful discourse and debate, as I believe (according to the situation) that this is the best way to sort these things out. I think, as i said in my previous meta, Galadriel falls victim to the narrative, and it’s entirely possible that she did not even know what she was doing. That she thought she had “grown”, but in actuality, had only assimilated into a colonialist society as one of the colonialist themselves. I think this is a prime example of her privilege, and the kind of thing that we tend to see in examples of white feminism today. That, or she did know. I’m stuck in between the two, as I know she was genuinely trying to do better. That said, on to your questions! :)

second off (as a partial response to your response) I actually think part of the Hot Topic-ness of Galadriel stems from whether or not you see specific sub-groups of elves as indigenous populations or as different groups of one whole population simply scattered by time. There’s a solid canonical argument to be made that elves never actually belonged in Middle-Earth, and that the Avari made the wrong choice in not going to Valinor even though they were exercising their free will.

What makes them indigenous is the fact that they believe they belong in Middle Earth, and this is shown in the case of both Mirkwood and Loth Lorien where the elves chose to stay at the dawning of the 4th age. They may not belong in Middle Earth on the basis of them being elves, but clearly the Silvan see it as their homes, as they chose to remain in Middle Earth.

And we need to make a distinction between indigenous and belonging, because those should not be used interchangeably. They are indigenous because they were born in Middle Earth and considered it their home, whether or not they belong there does not negate this. And because they believe they are indigenous, they believe that they belong there--which is clearly seen in their actions.

Whether others consider them indigenous to the land is beside the point, honestly. It matters what the marginalized group considers themselves and their home.

And I hope you don’t mind me using real life allusions but I believe it makes it easier for everyone following this thread to understand. I’m African American, and there have been arguments since slavery has been abolished that my people don’t belong in America, and that we’re not indigenous to this land. But, we’ve made this our home, we’ve build our traditions and customs here in America. That said, I consider myself indigenous to this land because I was born here and because my ancestors have made their culture here for the past 200 years, and my history and heritage is very much ingrained in the American south.

Now there are those who say I don’t belong here, there are those who are say I belong in Africa, but they’re not apart of my marginalized group, so they don’t necessarily have a say in that. The same thing can be seen with Native Americans, and immigrants from Latin America.  

The Silvan elves consider themselves indigenous to Middle Earth, they consider themselves belonging to Middle Earth, and we see this in their refusal to go to Valinor. At this point what others believe doesn’t necessarily matter considering it doesn’t change how the elves view themselves, and how that plays into their narrative.

What makes their story and Galadriel’s colonization is based on how they--as the marginalized group--perceives themselves, not how others do.  I think when we try to introduce this other debate regarding whether or not they belong in Middle Earth, we tend to look at it from a perspective that is not that if the Silvan elves, and consequently lose their voice in the midst of things.

That said I’m not denying that there’s a canon debate going on in regards to whether or not the elves belonged in Middle Earth or not, because I believe it.

And I think we can both sit here and argue for opposite sides, but that’s not what the point of this post is about.

It’s about Galadriel and colonization, so let’s try not to derail it by introducing another debate.

Admittedly, this does require a shared viewpoint with Tolkien (that while the Valar occasionally made incredible mistakes their end goal of “preserve all of these elves from the passage of time” was the right thing to do) and it requires an assumption that the Valar are inherently benevolent, but the argument does exist. (I think the reader’s perception of this generally falls under their opinions of religion as a whole? At least that’s what it’s been in my experience.) And Galadriel’s use of Nenya prolonged Lothlórien’s life as a viable civilization, protecting it from the fading that realms like Mirkwood faced over the centuries. This doesn’t mean I think you’re wrong, because it doesn’t, at all. I’m just confused because some of your responses seem to treat the active preservation she took part in during her time in Lothlórien as inherently bad for those living there. Especially because fading wasn’t something she and the other Noldor introduced, it was a natural consequence of the passage of time that all elves were inherently subject to as long as they remained in Middle-Earth. Basically I think that if we ought to blame anybody for it, we ought to blame Eru - the One seems to be responsible for the changing nature of the world. Tolkien himself is also guilty here, since Arda is our world and that necessitates the removal of fantasy races.

While Nenya preserved Loth Lorien, in the long run, it destroyed it. I don’t deny that it helped the realm, but in the end it completely ripped the realm of life, to a point where it could not even be replenished. Since we’re looking at this in terms of the effects of  colonization, i’m going to talk about why it’s bad in terms of colonization and racism, by of course, using real life allusions.

Consider Europeans coming to the certain indigenous lands and promising to keep them safe from warring tribes (We see this in Africa during the slave trade, and in certain indigenous cultures during colonization in the Americas and Western Expansion). They protect the indigenous tribes for a while, i’m not denying that. But it always ends with them leaving the indigenous populations scarred and drained. Yes, the Europeans came over and protected the tribes from warring tribes, but in the long run, they stole resources, eradicated cultures, and left the land in runs. Not unlike Loth Lorien.

More recent examples would be the Civil War in Rwanda with the Hutu and Tutsi peoples of Rwanda. I won’t get too into it, but basically the UN came and promised to help the Tutsi people, and for a while they did--they defended the Tutsis. But abruptly, they left when the Rwanda was in a state of chaos. They not only made things worse, but left the people they’d promised to protect to defend themselves. It wasn’t until the rebellion (of Rwandans) stepped in that things started getting better.  It’s the same concept with promising to help, but leaving when the realm or society is in a state of chaos, as Loth Lorien was.

I’ll use the reconstruction of the South post slavery as another example. Because the South was in such bad shape after the the CIvil War, and racism was at an all time high, the government sent in the army to protect freed slaves from violent racism (as well as to rebuild the South). In the short run, they helped protect the freed slaves from racism and even began rebuilding the South, but like the UN for Rwanda, and like the Europeans for certain indigenous tribes, they abruptly left, leaving the people to fend for themselves (or in certain cases, go with them to a land where they would face discrimination).

We can even see this in warfare today. Countries go overseas to fight and “protect” the other citizens, only to leave when the fighting is done and when the country is ruined.

We need to realize that there’s this history of privileged groups coming into marginalized communities and offering to help and protect them, and while they do this for a short while, they essentially ravage the land and people at the end. This is the case of Galadriel and Nenya.

In the short run, she helped them, but in the long run, she destroyed their homes and offered them an awful ultimatum as we discussed earlier.

And it’s not like their realm couldn’t have survived without the Ring. I mean Thranduil’s realm is a prime examples of a Realm surviving without the power of a Ring. Yes, it wasn’t perfect. But as far as we know Sauron’s forces never actually entered the actual palace, it was still safe enough for the King and his people to have picnics in (though arguably that was when things were better), and in the long run Mirkwood was replenished. So yes it went through hardships, but in the end it worked out for both the realm and the people.

Galadriel stepping in and “saving” Loth Lorien only to suck the life out of it afterwards is a prime example of colonization. The ends do not justify the means in her case.  

I think a lot of the controversy over “is this colonialism” (at least in predominantly white circles) comes from this sense that all elves are equal if culturally different. They have the same religion, they have languages stemming from the same family, they have cultural outlooks and opinions similar enough that marriages between different groups don’t seem to cause a lot of problems with regard to cultural blending. Also I’m curious as to where in canon it suggests that Silvan elves will be oppressed in Valinor, because what we see in the Histories and the published Silmarillion is that different people groups established their own cities in different geographical locations, with their own governments and sovereign states. If I’m missing something, I want to know, because that would change my entire opinion on whether or not the Valar-offered chance to leave was a good or a bad thing.

I think a lot of this has to do with the definition of oppression, and how I see it vs. how you see it. Depending on who you are, oppression is taking people’s right away completely. Others, such as myself, believe it to be the society I live in, due to increased racial discrimination and injustice fueled by racism. It’s like living with a constant target on your back based off of things you cannot control, and it gets even greater than that.

And off the bad I won’t say that there is strict sentence or paragraph saying  “They’ll be oppressed” more so implication leading up to it. The fact that we already have a group that is deemed less wise and more dangerous tells us this, because this is usually how oppression begins. With one group, usually marginalized, being deemed as less than the privileged group. So we already have an unfair and unjust prejudice against these people, not taking into consideration why exactly they are like that.

Juxtapose this with Loth Lorien, that’s ruled by Sindar and Noldor who impose their traditions on the Silvan, that’s not considered “less wise and dangerous”. So we have this idea that in order to be socially acceptable, “safe and wise” you need to be ruled by elves that are not of your kind, who impose their own culture and ways on you.

That’s oppressive.

Coupled with that, we already have this model where elves who are not of Silvan descent feel they are entitled enough to rule over Silvan elves, which implies that they see these elves as below them,  and these are elves coming straight out of Valinor believing this (and not entirely, because we have the Sindar, but with Galadriel, we now have Noldorian eves imposing their culture onto others), and benefiting from an establishment that colonizes other societies.

The mere idea that you can rule over people who are not your own implies that you see yourself above them, and that crosses into oppressive territories. And when Valinor itself already has aspects of oppression (main case being Feanor, the Valar believing they have the right to take his creations from him, and going as far as hallowing them. Essentially he doesn't even have the right to his own things, but I don’t want to open a Feanor debate, I just want to use that as an example) that Galadriel falls into, it’s not unsurprising to believe that this would continue with the Silvan elves in Valinor. They were going to be going with her to Valinor, and with Silvan being considered less wise and dangerous without being ruled by Noldor or Sindar, I feel like the situation we see above (in that someone would have to be ruling them) would have occurred again, only worse though, because it’s the Valar we’re dealing with. This is not meant as a defense of Galadriel. More than anything it’s meant as a “how do you interpret these various canonical elements? because your perspective is one I don’t see intuitively and I want to understand” chain of questions.

No, I understand that this is not a defense of Galadriel because at this point it’s nearly impossible to do so. And I understand you want to see the evidence as to why I and others think like this. I hope these answers sufficed, and if you have any other questions, feel free to ask :) As stated before though, I would not like to bring any other debate that’s not strictly related to this topic, only because I don’t want this post to be derailed.

#galadriel #lotr #loth lorien #valinor #colonialism #jrr tolkien #submission

[monstrousgourmandizingcats]

1, 9, 20

1. Tell us about your current project(s) – what’s it about, how’s progress, what do you love most about it?

I have three current projects, one of which I’m near the end of, the other two of which are long-term.

The one I’m near the end of is “Dog Star”, a historical-xenofiction novella about Laika, the first and most famous of the Soviet space dogs. The POV switches back and forth between her and a composite character of the various scientists and veterinarians who worked with her, in the lead-up to her launch on Sputnik II in November 1957. It’s also an allegory for clerical abuse, with a lot of attention paid to the ways the humans around Laika attempt to situate and justify their treatment of her politically and ideologically.

The long-term projects are the two that you can read about here! The second is one you’ve probably heard about at some point from Absynthe as well.

9. Are you more of a drabble or a longfic kind of writer? Pantser or plotter? Do you wish you were the other?

For some reason I find short concepts easier for fanfiction and long concepts easier for original fiction. “WIP #1″ from the post I linked above (the actual title is Portal of the Sky) broke the million-word mark years ago, wheareas only one of my fics on AO3 is longer than four chapters. I’m capable of either pantsing or plotting depending on the story and I’m genuinely not sure which I prefer in the abstract; what I can tell you is that Absynthe, who I’m pretty sure is a plotter, made sure that “WIP #2″ (the actual title is Silhouettes) was very well sketched out before we put pen to paper.

20. Tell us the meta about your writing that you really want to ramble to people about (symbolism you’ve included, character or relationship development that you love, hidden references, callbacks or clues for future scenes?)

Already answered!

Fun meta asks for writers

#writing #give me love give me memes #peredhel

[arofili]

Fornication and Relationships among the Eldar

[FaRE]: A Meta Analysis of LaCE

AO3 version of this can be found HERE!

I've been wanting to write this since like. 2016. and i finally got around to it thanks to the B2MeM prompt for "The universality of Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (O73) on the Silm Fanon Inversion card & @absynthe--minded‘s encouragement! thanks y'all!

Disclaimer right at the top: I may have gotten a few details here and there wrong. Blame fanon for that - this is as much an exploration of the fanon around LaCE as it is the actual document Tolkien wrote.

This meta can be shortened to "FaRE," mirroring the acronym "LaCE," but my roommate @berbss suggested the alternate title "Flaws and Customs among the Eldar" which is VERY funny and I needed to mention it.

CWs: lots of cursing, frank discussions of sex and sexuality, brief mention of rape, frequent insults to JRRT, obstinate queerness on the part of OP

Okay, so LaCE can be fun for plot reasons, and I want to preface this by saying that everyone's interpretations of this document are valid and I don't mean to shit on your headcanons, but let's be real! The whole idea that sex=marriage for elves is some real Catholic bullshit and Tolkien should be ashamed of himself.

The thing about LaCE, for me, isn't just "that's stupid and I want to write about elves that fuck" (though that is also true and valid). LaCE is is buckwild in a lot of ways, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense historically or culturally.

First of all, this is a Law and/or Custom of the Eldar. Who set down that law? When? Why? If it's a custom, does that mean it's not hard and fast for everyone? And it says /right there/ that it's a law/custom of the ELDAR, which leaves out the Avari entirely.

After all, another part of this law/custom is that marriage includes vows before Manwë, Varda, and Eru, none of whom are holy to the Avari. But the Avari are still elves; does that make them heathens in Tolkien's eyes? I mean, yes, definitely, but still! The Avari have no reason to follow this particular custom and were probably doing whatever the hell they wanted with their bodies and relationships.

But back to the Eldar. This rule stinks of the Valar to me. Eru was never that direct about what he wanted, and the Valar messed up all the time, especially when it came to elves. The Ainur don't need to procreate, after all, so why would they understand sex? Defining it in ways that they could divide into "right" and "wrong" is very much in character for them. And if it's a rule set down by the Valar and followed obediently by the Calaquendi...that raises a whole lot of questions about the Exiles.

Sure, maybe they followed that rule in Valinor, and the elves who live there might still follow it as well. If this law includes the "only one spouse" rules, we have good evidence that Finwë and his generation, at the least, were subject to it. But Fëanor and the other Noldorin Exiles forsook the Valar by returning to Middle-earth. Why would they keep this law if they are abandoning so many others?

Fëanor hated Indis, though, and might have wanted to cling to this law because of that. Or maybe not, and whatever he thought about marriage laws, his kin blamed the Valar for most of their troubles and this is another way to defy them. If you're partial to Russingon, Maedhros was already up to some illicit shit, and you can't tell me that ALL the Fëanorians were celibate in Beleriand. Like, c'mon, you know that Celegorm got some. (Or maybe not, your headcanons are VALID!)

The Arafinwëans and Nolofinwëans are direct results of a second marriage and the ~bending~ of marriage laws, if not their breaking. I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to overlook this... though maybe Galadriel, at least, stuck to the rule and passed it onto her subjects in Lothlórien later. (Or not...this one's for you, Galadriel/Melian shippers. Also, tangent: do you really think MELIAN really stuck to this law? Come on, she married an elf! She doesn't give two shits about the Valar and their laws about Ainur not having kids or whatever the fuck!)

We've established that the Vanyar and the other Valinorian elves were all about this law, questioned whether the Noldorin exiles would stick to it, and determined that the Avari had no reason to ever start following this custom. But what about the Silvan and Sindar elves who started the journey to Valinor, but never finished?

We know elves had familial relationships in Cuiviénen; Elwë and Olwë were brothers, for some reason. But the first elves just kind of...HAPPENED. Did this first generation of elves just not know to procreate until the Valar set down laws for them? Sounds fake. Maybe Elwë and Olwë weren't first generation, but literal blood brothers, and just happened to be among the most important leaders later. Or not, who really knows.

Elves had to figure this shit out on their own before Oromë stumbled across them. Maybe the Eldar adopted the laws along the way, having sex and children along their long journey to Valinor. In that case, the Silvan and Sindar elves didn't have much of a reason to stop following the custom, because they never outright rebelled, just kind of drifted away. To me, this seems like the most plausible reason that the law endured.

But over the Ages and Ages of time separated from the beings who set down the law, I can't believe that no one questioned it. What happens if elves have sex but don't want to be married? What happens if they have sex and do want to be married, but don't say the vows? Does it not count, then? Maybe not in the eyes of the Valar, but how fussed are the Silvan and the Sindar about conforming to the Valar's every whim? ESPECIALLY the Silvan, who never saw the Valar's power firsthand in the War of Wrath.

And what about the Sindar elves who followed Oropher to Eryn Galen? If the Silvan elves there had long since abandoned the tradition, would this custom get lost in Mirkwood when Oropher's people assimilated (mostly) into Silvan culture?

And this is all assuming the custom developed while on the journey to Valinor! If it didn't get set down until they arrived in Aman, only the Calaquendi ever followed this practice. How, then, would the rest of the elves learn of it? Noldorin colonialism? (Looking at you, Galadriel.) Or would they not even bother with it, whatever they think of the Valar in general?

I've written a lot already, but you know what? Let's go deeper.

What about elvish interactions with other species? There are canon elf-mortal relationships, but you can't tell me that the ONLY elf-fuckers were Tuor, Beren, and Aragorn. Sure, maybe we only KNOW about the high and mighty elf princesses and their scandalous affairs, but the Noldor were more than their princes. There were normal people there, too! Fantasy Classism dictates that only the famous relationships got written down, with whispers of others like Aegnor/Andreth and Mithrellas/Imrazôr, but come on. There were more that happened, and more peredhel than just Elrond and his family. And y'all know I'm a slut for elf/dwarf relationships! Tauriel/Kíli may be a PJ Original but like this is NOT a new idea...it's got to have happened, right?

How do these interspecies marriages work? Mortals can fuck an elf and not be married. Would the elf be married to them, but not the other way around? (I know I've seen a Gigolas post about that...) That doesn't sound legit. This whole idea is full of holes.

Besides, who says the Valar kept this law? Aside from cultural drift, it's such a normative way of looking at relationships. I'd like to think the Valar can learn and grow, especially given the disastrous rebellion of Fëanor. Let's talk polyamory for a bit: so many problems could have been solved if Finwë/Míriel/Indis could have been allowed! With the Finwëan fiasco, you think the Valar would reassess what they did wrong there!

What counts as "sex" for the purposes of sex being the same thing as marriage? Just PIV? There's a lot of sexual acts outside of that narrow definition. Is penetration the key? Because there's ways around that. Or is it orgasm? Because that doesn't necessarily require another person. If it is just PIV, I guess that would make gay elves unable to marry, but like... come on! That's some real bullshit, even for Tolkien!

What about asexual elves? Sex-repulsed elves? I've seen people claim that all Tolkien elves are demisexual, which...I have issues with, but there definitely elves with complicated relationships to sex! Are sexless marriages not valid? Even if they include vows? Consummation laws are not great, y'all...

And what about aromantic elves? Elves who have nonromantic sexual relations? Is that unholy and evil? I know Tolkien wanted his Favorite Special Perfect Species to not have any lust or sexual sin, but this is just unrealistic. Besides, Tolkien wrote flawed and fallen heroes all the time, just look at Túrin and Maedhros and Fëanor! Even IF LaCE was meant to be taken as literally as we sometimes take it, his own world and characters break his rules frequently.

What about nonromantic and nonsexual relationships? Those get brushed over a lot irl, but Tolkien's works are full of them. Just look at Frodo & Sam, probably what he intended Maedhros & Fingon to be, Legolas & Gimli, etc... Some of those people will want their relationship formalized, maybe through calling it marriage. Does that not count? Is Tolkien really going to say that these relationships he writes, often at the core of his stories, are suddenly lesser?

I can tell this is just veering into my politics around relationships in general, so let's get back on track:

The important part of this whole custom should be the love and intent behind the vows, not the act of sex. Elves can get married if they're on the run, if need be, so it's not the actual ceremony that they value. What the people involved want should be enough to make it formal in the eyes of each other and of the Valar, if that's something they care about.

When it comes down to it, sex equaling marriage is a custom and/or a law, like it says in the title of LaCE. It's not an inherently biological trait...which makes the whole thing about how elves can "see" if someone has gotten married SUPER weird. Maybe what they can really see is the marriage-bond, visible through some funky kind of magic - I could buy that, and I've played with the idea in fic before.

But I maintain that sex CANNOT equal marriage, even by Tolkien's standards. Rape is clearly not marriage, as we see in the case of Celebrían. Elvish marriage has intent and ritual behind it, certainly; that is what makes it a custom. To me, this whole idea feels like a mistranslation or misconception that occurred when mortal scholars tried to understand elvish customs.

At least, that's the in-universe explanation. The out-of-universe explanation is just that Tolkien is a fucking coward.

#laws and customs among the eldar #silm #silmarillion #b2mem #silm meta #my meta #tefain nin #b2mem 2019 #bingo bonus #fornication and relationships among the eldar #absynthe minded #berbss #meta #tolkien meta #my fic

[101dmpl]

Dla tych z Was, którzy interesują się sprzętem używanym przez depeche MODE na trasie dziś kilka cukiereczków z tym związanych. Potraktujcie to jedynie jako wstęp do dłuższych analiz, które dopiero nadejdą.

Troche to zaskakujące, ale Panowie aż tak bardzo nie zmienili swojego oprzyrządowania (tego widocznego) na trasę. Czekam jeszcze na zdjęcia zza kulis sprzętu który napędza i wspomaga grę depeche MODE na koncertach. Póki co jedynie podstawowy front end.

Andy Fletcher

Martin Gore

Dwa klawisze firmy Roland model Edirol PCR 800.

Guitars of Martin Gore

Gitary i osprzęt gitar – czekają na opis i pełną identyfikację, choć jak do tej pory wszystkie wiosła są doskonale znane z poprzednich tras.

Andy Fletcher

Dwa klawisze firmy Roland model Edirol PCR 800, oraz Acess Virus Polar z nastawami bassowymi.

Zarówno Martin, jak i Andy mają po dwa Edirole, ale tak na prawdę mają po jednym. Ponieważ oba klawisze pełną dokładnie te same funkcje u obu. Drugi klawisz ma służyć tylko po to, aby był zapasem, gdyby padł przedni.

Co to oznacza? Ci co ich podpatrzyli za klawiszami twierdzą, że obaj Panowie wcale tak dużo nie grają. Dotyczy to zarówno Martin’a, jak i Andiego. Tylko w jednym przypadku na 10 dało się zauważyć, że używają górnego i dolnego parapetu do gry równocześnie. To są obserwacje po dotychczasowych koncertach promocyjnych. Prawdziwą skalę poznamy, jak zespół ruszy w trasę.

Peter Gordeno

Peter Gordeno

Jeden Acess Virus TI, oraz jeden Roland SP RD 2000, plus jeden jeszcze nie zidentyfikowany.

Peter Godreno jako jedyny nie ma zdublowanego sprzętu. Jego główny klawisz to Acess Virus TI, a Roland SP RD 2000 używany jest jako jednostka sterująca, oraz do wykonywania pianinkowych akompaniamentów dla Martina, a może i Dave’a na tej trasie. Próbkę gry na Rolandzie mieliśmy okazję zobaczyć jakiś czas temu w serwisach społecznościowych firmy Roland.

Klawisze Gordeno za to nie są zabezpieczone podwójnym backupem (niewiadomo). Oznacza to ze fabryka za sceną śle mu nastawy do każdego numeru przed wykonem (tzw presety), ale… nie ma na to rezerwy. Trochę to nie zrozumiałe. Jeżeli na koncercie posypią się jakieś klawisze, to możecie być pewni, że to są właśnie klawisza Petera G.

Właściwie na przedzie to jest jedyna zmiana w sprzęcie zespołu koncertowego. Reszta sprzętów jest identyczna, jak na poprzedniej trasie.

Co ciekawe u Gore’a i Fletchera dolne klawisze to właściwie atrapy bo służą tylko za backupowe klawisze gdyby górne jebnęły. Co to oznacza? Ze graja jeszcze mniej niż by się wydawało. Praktycznie tylko w 10% używają 2 klawiszy razem w jakies piosence.

Barwy idą z softwareowych synthów: Native Massive, Native Kontakt, Native Absynth, G-Media ImpOSCar.

Christian Eigner

Perkusja Christiana Eignera

Perkusja Christiana Eignera

Zestaw na trasę będzie dużo bogatszy, niż teraz i ten opis ma charakter rozwojoy.

Zdjęcia sprzętów zostały zrobione w Paryżu przed koncertem dla RTL2.

Sprzęt depeche MODE na trasie

[absynthe--minded]

this is probably going to be a lot of jumbled words (thanks, COVID) but

the Edain aren’t second-class citizens compared to the Eldar in Beleriand or in Lindon or in Ost-in-Edhil and the other realms where Men and Elves interact. in Noldorin Beleriand, the Edain are vassals, sure, but so are the majority of the Eldar except for the royal family, including the Fëanárions. they’re voluntary settlers in a vassal state and their three Houses have leaders that were approved by the High King they swore allegiance to. they have distinct linguistic dialects of Taliska by the time they arrive in Beleriand, they have distinct cultures and phenotypical differences - the Hadorians are pale and blonde, the Bëorians are dark-haired and dark-skinned. they engage with the Eldar from a position of respect for the Crown but not deference. and once they leave Beleriand and they’re out of their traditional relationship to the Crown, everything changes. Númenor is now talking to Gil-galad as an equal power on the world stage, the Númenorean settlements and colonies are building a Dúnedainic diaspora that runs the gamut from benevolent new neighbors to violent colonizers.

idk I think there’s this really cool power dynamic that never gets examined where the Edain who come to Beleriand choose to be here and to stay (and they can leave! Bereg just up and leaves and takes people with him! there were ongoing conversations within their own people about whether or not alliance with the elves was the best thing for them, and when those who say “fuck this” come to that conclusion they’re totally free to do what they want, including walk away) and their relationship with the Noldor and the Sindar is about how they see themselves as equal to other Noldorin lords and nobles. there is canonical anti-human prejudice, Fëanor and Thingol both exhibit it, but it’s something that the Edain disbelieve and respond to and challenge, not something that’s true.

the tldr of all of this is I need to write more Edain fanfiction

#silmarillion meta #tolkien #silmarillion #absynthe's meta #I also need to write about the silence of the elves in the second age and their culpability when it comes to Númenorean colonialism #and frankly about Sindarin colonialism over the Silvan elves #but that resurrects my Sindar negativity lmao

[absynthe--minded]

Homecoming Husband??

the easiest explanation of a lot of this that I can find in one place is ATU 974 THE HOMECOMING HUSBAND, THE RETURNS OF ODYSSEUS, AND THE END OF ODYSSEY 21 (link to JSTOR, can be read online, yes the title is in all caps) - it won't be the only thing I'm referencing, but it gives a pretty good and accessible rundown of the basics and contains a few excerpts from non-Greek versions of the story that I think are relevant.

the Aarne-Thompson-Uther index is a folklore classification system designed to group different stories into similar types or motifs, with an eye to showcasing how the variations of a story don't change the fundamental pieces of it. this is of course an extreme simplification, but the idea is that it can demonstrate deeper cultural connection or shared influence as well as provide an organizational tool for folklorists and other academics. it's not without controversy but it's what we're working with here.

ATU 974, the Homecoming Husband, is the story of a man who's been away from home for a long time and returns in disguise to find his wife about to be married off to someone else. He infiltrates his home, now grown hostile, and reveals himself to his wife and her suitor(s) at a key moment. she recognizes him, her faithfulness is proved by her fidelity and joy at their reunion, and he overcomes the obstacles keeping them apart and reasserts his place at the head of the household. other versions include the husband killing the wife for being unfaithful, but we're going to focus on the happy ones.

as indicated by the title of that article, there are some theories that suggest Odysseus fulfills this motif, and some evidence for the idea that pre-Homeric or additional versions of the story of his return existed at one point. particular attention is drawn to Odysseus stringing his bow and the comparison in the poem to song and singing; in most versions of the story the husband reveals himself through song. the paper I linked details an Uzbek version (appropriately told in song) about a husband whose wife recognizes him after he sings to her and she reaches her hand through a lattice to hold his.

now I'm not going to make this about the Odyssey, so where this is relevant with regard to Tolkien and specifically to Fingon and Maedhros becomes evident when you consider both bow and song. Fingon has been isolated from Maedhros by war and tragedy, he sets out to save his spouse from calamity and facilitate their reunion, he reveals himself in song and Maedhros answers to prove his fidelity, and then Fingon of course tries and fails to shoot him while calling for help. they then vanquish the obstacles keeping them apart and are reunited in comfort and joy, for a time. you see something similar with Frodo and Sam in Cirith Ungol, though in this case the violence and bloodshed associated with murdering suitors has already been accomplished by the orcs themselves.

Túrin and Beleg are proof enough that Tolkien was familiar with Greek epics on a scholarly level (something something accepted tropes of gay relationships being inverted and played with, Beleg does the cooking and is the elder and dies first, boy I wonder if you read the Iliad in school Ronald) so arguing that there's a potential link between both the ATU motif and specifically its manifestation in Homer strikes me as reasonable. IANAC (I Am Not A Classicist) so I can only say that nothing ever happens by accident in these stories, and Tolkien was very good at reinterpreting existing inspirations into something wholly his own.

#absynthe's meta #RUSSINGON #replies #anon replies