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you-are-crazy-beautiful · 4 years

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S3 thoughts after complete rewatch

Please give me your thoughts and ideas. I’ll be blunt. Season 3 is bad. Really bad. There is absolutely no continuity between s2 and s3. I was joking that even though it’s meant to be set 6 months later, it could really be anytime after. I even would think I was watching an episode in the middle of a season if I was just shown 3x01 with no info. I feel that there is also a complete disregard to the tone of the show, despite Suzanne stating how it’s important to keep that. I do feel that Suzanne talks the talk more than she walks the walk.

1. When asked about the multiple POV Suzanne stated ‘those two women as the lynchpin relationship of the show. Their journeys are always at the spine of the story’. ‘all of them (new characters) have a really exciting energy, and really challenge the main characters’. I would argue completely against Eve and Villanelle and their relationship being the focus of this season. There are times and whole episodes when I feel there is almost a disconnect from each other. These two are absolutely, unhealthily addicted to each other. I think the amount of scenes they have together is perfect and almost the usual, but when they aren’t together, you know they are never normally far from each other’s mind. I would especially say I find it strange after V has finally got the kiss she has been waiting for 3 seasons, which would make her devotion go even more through the roof, she only has one Eve related moment (the cake) before phoning Eve after seeing each other at the train station in ep 7. They could have nearly sunk them!

· Konstantin and Carolyn even overshadowed Eve and had more character development this season. Besides from Dasha, I would also say the new characters hardly gave anything to the plot such as Aubrey, Paul, and Geraldine. It even took me a while to remember these characters names. Paul you could take out of the season and nothing would change except that Carolyn wouldn’t have had another person to shoot in 3x08. I think Geraldine was a good character to have for Carolyn to show how she personally grieves, but why did they keep having the same scenes again and again? What the heck was that thing with Geraldine and Konstantin? I’m still unclear on how Dasha and Villanelle’s relationship came about and what happened. How old was Villanelle? How long was Dasha her mentor for? It seems like they forgot that they had Konstantin saying to V in 3x02 about Dasha doing something to her and the way Villanelle attacked Dasha upon seeing her again, that they just quickly wrote the hospital scene in 3x08. I was so confused what was happening. Did they mean Dasha shot at Villanelle because ‘she wasn’t ready’ as in emotionally or physically? Did Dasha actually manage to shoot her? Didn’t they allude to Konstantin being the one to recruit her from the prison in s1, so how did she not stay with him? How did she escape Dasha? It seemed random that Dasha just happened to die when Konstantin was there, when he said she was going to die in the hospital. I thought he had done something, but apparently not?

2. When asked what she was most excited about the audience seeing, Suzanne said Villanelle and Eve’s journey. This is her quote about Eve. ‘Similarly with Eve, we really get to see deeper layers of Eve, and her really coming to terms with the person she is now. She’s forever changed because of what happened to her and what she’s been through, and it’s really about seeing her now, this new version of herself, and her acceptance of herself, which is very exciting and really takes her into new places’. I really just have to laugh. Where is it? It is absolutely ridiculous how little Eve was developed and ignored this season. When you guys do a rewatch, I highly recommend to at least watch 2x08 before going into s3 because it really just highlights the difference and how nuts it is that they dropped Eve by so much! I really don’t understand how it’s even possible. Coming into the show there are many ways you could go wrong. However, it’s not like it’s an easy thing to cut out the lead of your show! Especially when that character had the most exciting things happen to them in the finale of s2. The things I was most excited about going into s3 was seeing how Eve was coping with knowing she has the ability to kill someone. I can’t believe they did not bring up that Eve had killed someone once in the whole of s3!!! Like @kassies stated, it’s like Suzanne just took one line and things she liked and disregarded everything else. Suzanne practically said in the BBC sounds podcast that she had this idea of mummy issues, which personally I don’t think there is any evidence of except the fact V is attracted to older women, like most wlw are. If anything there is more evidence she would have daddy issues with her history of castrations and the many times she comments that she finds it strange that Konstantin hasn’t tried to have sex with her. After the line ‘most of’ her family were dead she stated she could go down that route! She practically wrote the whole season just based on this. She hasn’t even taken the quote correctly, as like others have pointed out, most of her family were actually alive and it was only her dad who was dead. I loved episode 5 originally but on my rewatch with the whole season it really seemed strange. When I first watched it I thought the next episode was going to be largely devoted to Eve so I wasn’t so bothered that it was a whole V ep. However, considering Eve was hardly given anything in ep6, I really don’t see how a whole V episode was needed. The annoying thing was this season could have been the best yet. With Eve and Villanelle both discovering themselves and meeting at the end. It was that, but with hardly any Eve content and I feel they are so lucky they managed to pull it off in the last 2 eps, and that’s largely down to what s1+2 accomplished. Again, ep5 just seems like a way for Suzanne to explore her mummy issues story, as there is nothing really juicy or pivotal for the plot. Why not really show how the twelve have had their eye on V since she was little. Have the mum saying a man told her V was dead, as Konstantin did with Anna in s1? It would have added so much more to the twelve. Especially when the big thing about V this season is her wanting away from the control the twelve have on her. Why not show just how much?

I actually had no idea what Eve was thinking for most of the season and from what I do know and think is based on what I know of this character from the previous 2 seasons. Maybe this is just me not getting it, but I thought Eve was in the kitchen because she was in denial and I kept waiting for her to get a breakthrough and embrace her true self. It wasn’t until Sandra said Eve was actually showing strength by working in the kitchen, and by saying ‘no’ to working in the front, that I was like ‘oh’ that’s what it’s meant to mean. I actually feel so sad for Sandra because I can’t imagine what she must have been thinking with Eve’s treatment this season. I actually feel there are even moments in the season that delibrately stop Eve’s development. For example that lazy line of ‘lucky those tourists found you’. How? I know irl it’s a tourist attraction, but in the show they had to break into a tunnel to access it. I also don’t like the scene with Jamie. You could say it highlights the line in the finale ‘I think we all have monsters’ but I feel like it invalidates just how different Eve and Villanelle are from other people. Jamie taking his kids to the zoo when high is hardly the same as Eve hacking a man to death with an axe.

This is already so long, and I could go on and on, but I’m just going to point out some issues and plot holes.

. Kenny’s death was meant to be the biggest storyline of the whole season and what got Eve back into the story. However, she only looked into his death in ep3 and never again. Carolyn didn’t even really look into his death and all we got was constant scenes with her and Geraldine. Why couldn’t we have gotten Eve and Carolyn doing real detective work like in s1 as was implied was going to happen in ep3? I don’t even feel like they actually thought through his death as it was ‘solved’ by Bear who despite apparently not thinking Kenny had commited suicide from the beginning and wanting access to his phone, apparently did not think to check a camera he had set up until weeks later?! I don’t think it’s possible Kenny fell off the roof as in ep4 when Eve chucks the cake, the wall comes up near to her chest. You could not fall off that. He also would have screamed when falling. I also don’t even know how the twelve knew Kenny was looking into the accounts. Especially if they knew Kenny was looking into it, and knew money was being taken, how did it take them so long to kill the accountant? Laura could develop this in s4, but I feel as though it was Suzanne’s job to follow through with this storyline.

. How did Konstantin know what V looked like as a baby? Where did he see the photo? Why did they make a point to highlight that she was with someone in the photo and Konstantin really didn’t seem to want to tell her, yet the next episode he handed over her family right away? As much as I love Villanelle’s journey, on a rewatch, the family story seemed to almost come out of nowhere in ep3 and then the next episode she had the information and went home. Why not introduce the idea in ep 1?

. How would Puyter know that it was his sister? Upon immediately seeing her he knew it was Oksana. I don’t think it says how old they were, but he is younger than V, and we saw how old she was in the pics, I really don’t think he would recognise her, especially when he thinks she is dead.

. Why is there not pictures of the dad? Even if the mum was saddened by his death as she really seemed to love him, why would she not have any photos? Also with how much she seems to be scared and despise V, why would she keep the photos of her? Did the dad die while Villanelle was still there or is she just taking he’s dead as he’s not there. I thought they were going to reveal that the dad was still alive and part of the twelve but nope.

. Why was Rhian so scared of V at the train station? I know she’s the demon with no face, but Rhian was ready to be moving into Villanelle’s shoes, and you can even see V is struggling to kill her, so why does Rhian act so scared and back herself onto the edge of the platform? That moment feels so disgenuous to me and at one point I though Rhian was acting.

. How did Carolyn know Helene and that V was working for her? Is it a plot hole or something to be explored in s4?

. Why was Eve acting like she didn’t know Villanelle was responsible for the Catalan murder in ep4 when we know she can tell V’s kills after a sec (as seen in ep6) and even after Carolyn had shown her the photo and said it was V?

. They didn’t even seem to give much attention to Eve’s scar or wound. It was not where it was in 2x08. I know they said that they were going to move around where she had been shot, but when Suzanne was asked why the scar was different she said she wanted it to seem like Villanelle went for the kill shot, despite saying in other interviews that she doesn’t think Villanelle did try or want to kill Eve. The scar’s even so weird. I’m no expert, so that it maybe how they look, but it doesn’t even look like a bullet wound. Would the bullet not have left a round mark?

. Why did they keep Niko around for so long? I personally loved where Emerald had taken it in 2x07 and was excited to see where Niko was. Maybe he was up for the murder of Gemma. It would have been another good opportunity to see Eve's skewed morals. A part of her being flattered that Villanelle killed Gemma as sort of revenge for stepping on Eve. Instead it got completely swept under the rug in 3x01 too by Niko saying mi6 said she killed herself. What happened? How did they find him? It doesn't even make sense now why V killed her. However, I would say there was also something symbolic about him ending up in a rehabilitation retreat because Eve and her actions has 'broken' him. It was quite powerful for his character to tell Eve he deserved better than her. Because he does. He basically told her to p*ss off there. Why make the little time Eve is being given to another ep where she chases him down, for him to get brutally attacked in a way that is so ridiculous that he would survive it borders on a soap opera. I thought the reason he survived was to give a big Eve moment of her saying her acceptance that she can't have a normal life. Instead they just had the same convo as 3x01 with him telling her to p*ss off. Then a scene with Eve looking at him and leaving. What is going on in her head? Why are you not giving her anything? We didn't even get to see her dealing with the act happening.

. This brings me onto the point of it. It could of had so much impact, yes it was cool because Eve knew it wasn't V, but there could have been so much more given to it. Such as Dasha saying to V in the lift in 3x07 about her having someone waiting for her back home, how Dasha has just destroyed the thread between the only person V cares about. It would have made V hitting her with the golf club so much more delicious.

. Villanelle saying to Konstantin that she didn't want him to die in 3x07 and looking upset. Yet in 3x08 she looks almost excited about the fact he's about to be shot?

. It also annoys me so much that Raymond was just discarded and we still know nothing about the twelve. I thought this season was really going to dive into them, but we don't know anymore about them than we did at the start of the season. After rewatching 2x08 I really wish they had explored the twelve thru Raymond. If you wanted to give Konstantin more why not have him in with the twelve and the consequences of 2x08? Raymond saying 'Some would say I'm a real somebody'. 'They will take you apart for this'. 'After today a lot of people are going to be angry'. How high was Raymond? The implications that V+E were in so much danger after killing Raymond. Then it's 6 months later and Dasha just says they've been watching V for months. Were they watching Eve? Who knows nobody cares about Eve this season😒 Why bring in new members of the twelve like Paul, make brand new stories such as Kenny's death and the money, to just kill Paul and not resolve them.

I really don't understand how the twelve haven't killed V yet. She screws up all the time from s1 onwards. I get she is amazing at her job but they have others such as Rhian. Why do they let her get away with it? It was confusing me so much this season. I thought they were going to make her dad a member of the twelve and that's how she's protected.

. The title cards and intro. By now you might all be thinking she's just tearing everything apart. Trust me, there are moments of s3 I love and that is why it's so frustrating. Laura's 3 eps are some of my fave of the show so fingers crossed that means good things for s4. I felt she grasped the original tone of the show. So speaking of staying true to the show, I don't understand why they were changing the format of the title cards. Sometimes it was funny 'p*ss off forever' and 'this is bullshit'. Yet, it also really threw me off because it's not what usually happens. I'm all for new things being tried, yet I actually find myself questioning what wasn't changed and what was kept original? The names coming up in 3x04...I can't even. This is more of a personal take as I know some people really liked them, but when it was coming up 'Eve' I was just sitting there thinking 'I know that's Eve. I've been watching her for 3 years'.

Why was there only a title sequence in 2 episodes? Suzanne got asked and said that it was only ep2 and ep7 that felt right. I mean...I'm pretty sure it could have worked in all of them. I loved the title sequences so much, and was so excited when that drop fell and they started in ep2. Then I was so confused when none of the next ones had it. Episode 7 is one of my favourite episodes of the whole show, and that title sequence is just *chef's kiss*. My point really is that it came across to me as an experiment as they only did certain things in one episode and never again, and it made me uncomfortable.

#killing eve #villaneve

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kaypeace21 · 5 years

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i LOVE your analysis especially byler ones so please don't take this as hate, it's the last thing i want to do. but while i love the byler theories do you actually think the duffers are smart enough to realize the potential/brave enough to follow through on the relationship. bc tbh i think our viewpoint is skewed i don't think anyone but byler shippers see the canon possibility. and also it really seems like m/leven is going to be endgame? just wanted to know more of your thought process

Even if byler never happens- I’m 100% sure mileven won’t be endgame XD. Regardless of byler, Mike and El are just not going to happen. (Even if they’re ‘dating’ in s4). I could try to explain the reasons why I think byler will be endgame though. I’ll give the cliffnotes version. This will probably be a mess- because focusing on all the reasons isn’t as good as analyzing , each reason as it’s own separate post, in depth).

Why mileven isn’t endgame

- The duffers said, while filming ST, El was supposed to die in s1 (glad that didn’t happen). And this was also their plan when pitching their show ‘Montauk’ (later retitled ST), saying that the hypothetical s2 sequel would be about the boys returning to their town 10 years later. Mileven was never ‘planned end-game’. They also describe mileven kissing but never mention the word ‘love’ like how Jancy was described in the Montauk pitch. Nancy’s bio says “ she will experience love for the first time.” But when they describe mileven, they say, “If Mike is the Elliot of our show, Eleven is our “E.T.” Like that’s … not romantic, Duffers. And if it was supposed to be … WTF did you guys watch the same film? 0-O

- In the byler centric s2, the Duffers kept mileven separated. And the mileven kiss wasn’t written in the show. Millie pretty much said “they had to do it.” Much to Matt’s confusion but then the Duffers agreed. And used ‘every breath you take’ (a song about divorce), and just by coincidence their 2nd back-up song was also a song about a divorce? Nah, they were trolling.

- Most of the women (Nancy & Max) in the show critique Mileven saying Mike treats her as if she’s stupid, can’t take care of herself, or as she is a possession.

-in the first ep of s3 almost all the guys (who had/have gfs) Hopper, Lucas, and Dustin all criticize the mileven relationship and think it’s unhealthy.

Hopper says “ They’re spending entirely too much time together… It is constant.It is constant! Okay? That is not normal, that is not healthy! ”

Lucas mocks Mike, saying “ Oh El, I wish we could make out forever and never hang out with any of our friends.”

Dustin says when they flake on him, “It’s bullshit, I just got home!” (insert Nancy calling Stancy ‘bullshit’)

and before this Dustin talks about Romeo & Juliet (while mileven is out of frame). R&J is all about the dangers of not knowing the difference between love and infatuation. Juliet after Romeo is banished just complains about how in love/sad she is but never pursues looking for him (sound familiar)? R&J claimed that they were in love with each other after knowing each for a few days and deciding to get married-sabotaging the closest relationships they had with their friends/family (all in the name of ‘true love’) . Similarly Mileven thought they were in love after only a week of knowing each other, and the second they are reunited they start dating and spend all their time with each other. El is allowed out of the house (and her friends are allowed to visit), but El hasn’t interacted with Max nor Will? They spend almost everyday in her room just making out. Mike puts very little effort into integrating her into his life or as part of the group. The only time they go out- is for Mike to show off El to Dustin like a possession- then before El can even do the boding activity with the group (with the radio tower)- Mike convinces her to leave to make out. They are both complicit in this and they both bring out the worst in each other and they make each other blinded to their loved ones’ feelings.

- El literally asks Max “How do I know what I like?” Do I have to explain why this could be problematic? She even says “I don’t know”, when Max asks if Mike is a good kisser.You can call me ‘ableist’ my abused-autistic ass will disagree. But El is not ready for a romantic relationship! it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of romantic, platonic, and familial love- when the first 12 years of her life she didn’t receive any form of love , PERIOD! And she is not like normal abuse victims (she has never had proper socialization with peers her own age or even adults).All she had was television. She latches herself on to anyone who is kind to her (something I used to do). Without Mike she used Max as a replacement almost immediately, and even starts repeating/mirroring the things she says (specifically coping phrases from her …over 6 times!). She’s also susceptible to doing what others say or want her to do, “dumping his ass” (with Max’s validation and encouragement). El might love Mike but I don’t think it’s romantic, she latched on to the first person that was kind to her. Before their first kiss she asked Mike “Will you be like my brother?” And she’s hurt when he says “no”, asking “Why not?”. He then kisses her (she watches a lot of soap operas and she assumes it must be ‘romantic love’). You’re telling me that if she was ‘in love’ with Mike she would have been that happy over dumping him? I’m not saying El is dumb for not being able to discern these things (I think people without such backgrounds may still struggle with this concept). But it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of various loves or even the differences between ‘crushes’ , ‘physical attraction’ and ‘romantic love’

- In the last ep El asks about what he said at the cabin to Max, specifying “you talked about your feelings?”. He says and I QUOTE “Oh! Oh, yeah that.Man, that was so long ago. Um…” and starts to scratch his head. Then he excuses what he said at the cabin, saying it was “in the heat of the moment stuff and we were arguing… I don’t actually remember. What did I say exactly?”

Now either he legitimately forgot! Or he lied! You know the thing that broke them up in the first place! The one thing that El holds as her most important value in life- honesty. And he lied- about something as important as his romantic feelings?! Make up any excuse (about being shy/character flaws all you want), but this isn’t real life- it’s fiction (everything is done for a narrative purpose). That wasn’t an accident ( mileven wasn’t “written out of character”- like milevens claim, the duffers were criticizing the ship on purpose) .And the fact he lied again! Wouldn’t bode well for a long term relation with each other. The whole season, criticized their romantic relationship ! That wasn’t a coincidence neither was the fact he looked confused by her confession, and kept his eyes open the whole time and didn’t kiss her back .

And as she smiled and walked away, he looked confused. That wasn’t a directing mistake, like so many milevens are claiming! You really think they wouldn’t make sure their ‘fav ship’ didn’t have a good final kiss?

Especially since it was right after a romantic Jancy scene (which was directed amazingly)- where Nancy even mentions Mileven- to make us compare the 2 pairings romantic scenes even more.

* I know I sound like an assh*le but I’m just annoyed. I’ve always censored my byler posts trying not to offend/criticize mileven. I never cross tagged my byler meta with the hashtag mileven (never will, cause it’s rude). But (without sounding pompous) my byler posts generally gets reblogged a lot- and now the milevens have seen my posts (and are sending lots of hate my way) and worst of all they’ve invaded the byler tag. Today I saw 2 posts in the byler tag saying. “We’re delusional” and “stupid”- and also in the same posts they say they “feel attacked” by us.Um… there’s a difference between byler shippers privately criticizing a ship without bothering mileven shippers (and only tagging it byler) . Versus Mileven shippers tagging things byler (and ranting about the ship and it’s shippers). Loved the comment about how Mike can’t be bi cause “he loves El too much”.I think Mike is probably gay and in denial. But, um that’s not how being bi works- didn’t know bi people love women and men ½ as much as the gays/straights. Thanks for informing me (rolls eyes for eternity).So kid-gloves off, nothing left to lose! Time to compare the ships.

‘The breakup’ vs ‘fight’ parallel

comedic vs dramatic! The casual sunny day vs the dramatic framing of the storm (a romantic trope) . The ‘break-up’ being a scene with multiple onlookers vs the fight being with Will and Mike only (making it more personal/intimate). ‘Cold as ice’ playing after the mileven breakup vs the sad instrumentals playing during the byler fight. The comedic after-math at the mall. El and Max laughing, and another joke being made as the bus leaves.El’s happiness vs Will’s heartbreak.

Mike’s drastically different expressions after their fights. He looks regretful with Will, and almost annoyed with El dumping him. The fact Mike apologized right away more than once to Will, and ran into a storm to apologize a 2nd time. But with El he just lies to cover up the first lie, and then after the break-up he just complains/lounges on the couch (not taking any responsibility). He literally says about El “Why is she treating me this way? What did I do to deserve this? What did I do wrong?”.( He lied and made her feel “like garbage”!) Then he burps and laughs about chips- and makes sexist comments. Neither EL nor Mike are heartbroken by the breakup.

But when he angers Will (by him trying to finish the game early), he immediately tries to de-escalate saying softly “I was just joking- c’mon, let’s finish the game”. But when Will just yells back (much to Mike’s confusion) he doesn’t dismiss his feelings as irrational (like he wrongfully did to El) but chases him to the garage- and begs him to stay since it’s raining.

In the garage, Mike immediately apologizes saying “I said I was sorry, alright. It was a cool campaign.” But after this, they fight and Mike runs into a storm to apologize a second time , and says to Will’s door “ WILL! I’m sorry I was being an asshole. Can you just come outside and we’ll talk? WILL!” He immediately takes responsibility and apologizes. And he’s desperate to resolve things. And when they find him outside castle Byers he just asks (Mike’s catchphrase) “Will, Are you ok?”

Shed scene ( “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “the most important thing in the world to me”) parallel

When Mike says to El “you’re most important thing to me” in the pool shed. El doesn’t even acknowledge the comment (and neither should the audience- cause the words were empty). She completely ignores his words, and responds by asking him about his previous comments. Asking whether Hopper was right about them spending too much time together.

I didn’t edit (or delete any scene after his proclamation) this is how fast it was delivered ! The framing of this mileven scene was not cinematic or heartfelt, and neither was the delivery from Mike. He’s not crying, trying to reach her with proclamations of his genuine feelings. There’s no dramatic music, framing, lighting or shot composition. And El just responds and cuts his supposed ‘true feelings’ off- only to agree with Hopper and says “ she should spend time with her own species.” And if this ‘romantic moment’ wasn’t already undermined enough. This is when Mike realizes she was spying on him , and feels wrongfully violated (something she doesn’t apologize for, saying “I make my own rules” . He even brings this up in a later episode (this clearly bothered him)!

Juxtaposed to the MUCH longer byler scene. A literal single tear falling down his cheek as Mike , recounts the first day they met. Mike being in the back drop of darkness only his face being illuminated (having him appear like a guiding light to Will). Saying “ I felt so alone and so scared… but you were alone too” (alone together/crazy together) . He then talks about asking Will to be his friend, and then he pauses and breaks eye contact , before looking him in the eye and smiling (lost in the memory) saying softly “you said yes, you said yes.” (cough like saying yes at a wedding).

So, after he says “you said yes, you said yes.” It’s important to mention that he takes a deep breath and breaks eye contact again, (looking down and to the side) as he says this line. Subconsciously, I believe he knows this line is romantic and he’s too afraid to say it to his face. Only flicking his eyes up to look at Will after he finishes the entire sentence, and to gauge Will’s reaction.

This whole monologue is only of tight shots of just their faces (their bodies aren’t shown like in the pool shed scene). This is a personal moment between them and them alone- and the fact we zoom in on their faces (expresses this to be important emotionally) . And when we see Will’s reaction to Mike saying “it was the best thing I’ve ever done”. We just see Will’s face only- no music is playing and all we hear is Will’s whimpers and Mike crying in the background.

“ Blank makes you Crazy” vs “ Crazy Together parallel

When Mike tries to confess his “love” to El he says “Well they do say it makes you crazy”… much to El’s confusion.He has to try to explain it a second time to El- who just gets even more confused, by his ‘confession’. Saying “you never heard that expression? Like blank makes you crazy … like the word (love)?”

But when Mike says he “feels like he’s going crazy” Will immediately responds with “Me too”. Mike even smiles at the comment. So that moment in s2 means more than we think, when Mike (with tears in his eyes) smiles at Will’s comment and asks them to go “crazy together”.And when Will responds back “yeah, crazy together” (who also has tears in his eyes). They even linger on the moment as they just smile and stare at each other.

Mike is in denial, and may not even realize he loves Will, but he knows subconsciously that he does. He heard the phrase “love makes you crazy and that damn stupid”, 100′s of times and that’s why he said that phrase to Will. And why it made him so happy when Will reciprocated , by saying “ yeah. crazy together.” In addition to why we see them both go from happy, to immediately upset over the conversation.The scene was already romantically coded in s2 (but the scene in s3 re-contextualizes the whole thing) . Mike thinks “love makes you crazy” , and he asked Will to go ‘crazy together’ with him. And When Will is at castle byers looking at the Halloween pic of the 2 the day Mike said that, Will cries and calls himself “stupid” (4x). Can’t get more obvious… Like look what the duffers did!

El and Will’s opinions on Mike (Parallels)

-When asked if Mike was a good kisser, she just said “I don’t know he’s my 1st boyfriend.” (implying she’s thinking, at least subconsciously, of having other boyfriends ,who are not Mike in the future). But when Mike pretty much asks’ if Will thought they’d never get girlfriends, and spend the rest of their lives with each other’.Will just sadly responds “yeah, I guess I did. I really did!” Unlike, El, Will always saw Mike as his future, his forever.

-And when Mike says “it’s just a break” , Max says “No it’s not!”, and we see El laugh along with Max’s comment. She is not heartbroken at the idea of never getting back together with him, romantically. Right after they break up she was laughing, reading comics, and playing games with Max.

But Will is devastated over the fight! And out of all the memories in Castle Byers it’s the Ghostbusters photo from Halloween that causes Will to pick up the bat and start destroying everything. That was the night that Mike agreed to go “crazy together” with him. He tears it in ½ right in the center where Mike and Will are. He was so stupid to think it meant anything. The “crazy together” scene, that Mike initiated in s2 was always meant to be romantic. Not only because of Will’s reaction to the photo in s3, but because Mike in s3 says “They do say it makes you crazy…blank makes you crazy.” Which is exactly what happens to Will, as he has his breakdown.Castle byers was built on a rainy night , the same day Will’s dad left, when Will was 5 (the same age he met Mike). And lonnie called him a “queer” and a “f*g” and forced him to do “normal things” like baseball to have him “be more of a man”. And then on a rainy night, after Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls”… what does Will destroy castle byers with? A baseball bat! The fact Will has a baseball bat (despite in s1 saying he does not like baseball) in Castle Byers, surrounded by things he loves: drawings, d&d, art supplies, a microscope, comics- just shows what an impact Lonnie’s problematic conditioning and abandonment had on him. He used a baseball bat to destroy something he loves -castle Byers, and symbolically he was trying to reject his feelings for Mike using Lonnie’s old tactics of fixing him.

- Also, El doesn’t even seem to appreciate when Mike acts like his true self (goofy/like a kid). She laughs when Max complains he talks too much. Rolls his at his jokes with the cpr-dummy, covers his mouth and tells him to stop when he tries to joke and sing, ignores him when he gets excited about talking about dinosaurs. Which relates to my next point

The only characters who’s character bios focus on ‘escaping’ through d&d is Mike and Will.

Will in the Montauk pitch was described as having “sexual identity issues… LIKE MIKE , Will ESCAPES through fantasy gaming where he can be himself, uninhibited.” Like what is Mike escaping from… being a nerd? Because they could of said ‘like his friends’. And no it’s not because they’re best friends- they even specifIed in Lucas bio he’s “ Mike’s best friend” (which was even mentioned in s1).

.In Mike’s character description it says “ bullying and near-crippling insecurity. He has never had a first kiss, much less a girlfriend.He ESCAPES his insecurities through reading fantasy novels … retreating into his own vivid imagination. The Dungeon Master of his Dungeons and Dragons group, he writes sprawling adventures with fantastical monsters.When he finds himself on a real adventure, facing real monsters, he will discover a courage he didn’t know he had. By the end, he will even kiss a girl.”

*Interesting that Mike uses D&D to escape his insecurities about not having a gf (retreating into his imagination). While Will (who is somewhat aware of his sexuality) uses d&d to escape and be himself uninhibited. They’re foils in a sense- using d&d for opposing reasons.

So the s3 fight about d&d games has a lot more meaning

Mike equates heterosexual romance with ‘growing up’ and his feeling for Will as something childish he has to grow out of.When they fight over d&d. Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!”, then he tries to ½ apologize only to say, “I’m not trying to be a jerk. Ok? But We’re not kids anymore.” He pretty much explains, this is just the way things are-boys fall in love with girls, get girlfriends, and that’s just a part of growing up (heteronormativity). And tells Will “I mean, what did you think, really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends? We were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?” And poor Will who is probably more aware of his feelings just responds. “Yeah. I guess I did. I really did.” And after this Mike rushes to Will’s house and apologizes saying he was an “asshole.”When he tries to say he loves El . It was very forced. He can’t even use the world love or explain his feelings, “A feeling … yeah, like, something… like OLD PEOPLE say it sometimes”.

He can’t even describe love and what his “feelings” entail for El , he then says “Yeah, like something , like old people say it some times. He doesn’t even say it back in the last ep, when she confesses. It’s all talk, but no feeling, it’s just a part of becoming an adult in Mike’s mind.

In the last ep before the mileven kiss, he even invites both El and Will over for Christmas saying “ And Will too… we could all have new presents to play with and… *scoffs* Sorry, that made me sound like a 7 year old... ”

And it’s implied in the last ep (before the mileven kiss), because of the 3 month breakup Mike is back to liking d &d. When Mike sees Will put his own d&d book in the donation box he stops him.

Mike: “WHOA, dude that’s the donation box.”

Will: “ I know, I’ll just use yours, when I come back. (pause) if WE still want to play?”

So then Mike asks, shyly …

Mike : “Yeah, but what if you want to join another party?” (cough- girls , the other ‘species’, or just someone else: girl, guy or otherwise)

Will: “Not possible.” (Will will always love Mike- insert Mikes immediate heart-eye reaction to this comment).

I think people don’t notice what the subtext is here- regardless of his intentions, Mike broke Will’s heart. He made him feel “stupid” for ever thinking he ever had a chance with Mike. He always saw Mike as his forever, but Mike shot any hopes of that down in the garage. Will doesn’t trust his own instincts. Mike could straight up flirt with him in s4/5- and Will would dismiss it as his imagination. He essentially said ‘he’ll always love Mike- but if something is going to happen. It’s up to Mike to initiate it’.

Mike was queer coded since ep 1 (and he’s more queer coded than Will)!

I LITERALLY thought (in s1) Mike was queer before Will!

- 3 rainbow references. Mike in s1 in his basement has a red heart being propelled by a rainbow sign. We see this again in s3 as a drawing. Mike also stands next to Will behind a rainbow apple poster in s2. Forbidden fruit + rainbow = queer forbidden romance. Also the apple poster was in the AV Club and at that time the rainbow apple-mac sign was suspected to be in reference to for Alan Turning (the gay ‘father of computers’).

In s1:

- 4 separate characters said El looked like a boy, but Mike doesn’t care! Even one of the men thought El might be the missing ‘Byers boy’. When El loses her wig , Troy said “she doesn’t even look like a girl” to the cops. But Mike just calls her “really pretty”

-Nancy says “I thought you were acting weird, but I thought it was because of Will” And Mike responds “I thought you were acting weird too I thought it was because of Steve … Do you like Jonathan now”?” Nancy: “No, do you like Eleven?”. They literally compared the explicit love triangle between Steve/Nancy/Jonathan to the Will-Mike-El dynamic!

- Mike literally uses gender inclusive pronouns when talking about crushes using the word “someone” (3 times), and embarrassing himself because he can’t articulate the difference between friendship and romance. When he could of simply given the 80s heteronormative answer of ‘when a boy likes a girl’.

Mike: “ you go to school dances with someone.

You know someone that you like”

El: “a friend?”

Mike: ‘not a friend uh … uh someone like a” (gives up and kisses her)

-Mike’s mom said “ What’s been going on with Will, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for you. I just … want you to feel like you can talk to me. I never want you to feel like you have to HIDE anything from me” (she even emphasizes the word ‘hide” (which is heavily queer coded)

- when Will ‘dies’, “we can be heroes” by David bowie (a bisexual singer) plays, “And we kiss as though nothing could fall and the shame” is the lyric that plays when Mike returns to his house and cries in his mother’s arms over the ‘death’ of Will. Do I have to explain how ‘kissing and shame’ are queer-coded . And how such a lyric is oddly romantic- if we’re supposed to see their bond as nothing but platonic XD

-his dad jokes “Absolutely not” *turns to wife* “our son with a girl?”.

- when Lucas makes fun of his crush on EL, Lucas gets down on one knee and says “ I love you so much, will you marry me?” and literally 1s later, we’re introduced to the bullies and the idea (for the first time) that Will is ‘gay’, and Mike is in the forefront of the scene and unlike his friends he is THE ONLY ONE physically assaulted as they cause him to fall face first into a rock (like a gay-bashing) . They leave Lucas and Dustin unharmed. Even though Lucas just proposed to another guy- which should have gotten him a beating by the homophobic bullies.

It’s supposed to subconsciously hint Mike is queer like Will, and likes Will. The first interaction with the bullies, they mention Will being ‘gay’ right after they mention Mike’s crush on androgynous El and have a guy propose to Mike. Mike says to “ignore them” ( the homophobic remarks) but is assaulted anyways. And when asked what happed he doesn’t want to tell El the details cause he’s ashamed .

2nd time the bullies talk about Will, Mike is once again in the forefront, unlike his straight friends who are in the background . But this time Mike initiates the confrontation), as the bullies say Will is “flying in fairyland with all the other little fairies. All happy and gay”. Mike was literally on the verge or tears at this comment (despite being happy a few moments earlier , telling the others to ‘act sad’ because they’d look suspicious other wise). But this is the comment where Mike snaps and pushes Troy back (because he took it personally/wanted to defend Will).

The framing of Mike once again being in the front and snapping at the homophobic remarks ( gifs don’t do it justice, just rewatch the scene -Mike eyes water at the remarks). Then the last time the bullies appear , Mike jumps off the cliff and “flies like a fairy” (like Troy said) thanks to El . Troy at the police station even uses the word “fly” not levitate.

-Mike sneaking out to find Will, as Steve sneaks in to Nancy’s. They both even make eye contact (and pretend not to have seen each other).

- they share dinosaur toys , in s1 and 2 they appear to be the only ones with dinosaur toys.

- The s1 mom hug scene where Mike feels he lost Will is paralleled in s3 - signifying how he lost him a 2nd time.

- Mike in the 1st ep being the one to insist on looking for Will in the rain (callback to s3). But he never went looking for El when he saw her through his window? Even when Mike saw Will’s dead body, the second he heard his voice he convinced his friends to help rescue him!

- You remember the binder (from s1) that Mike keeps, filled with 100s of Will’s drawings, and how he caresses the drawing after thinking Will was dead. That’s totes platonic.

- Mike in s1 proclaiming “I’m the only one who cares about Will!” Seems like something a kid with a crush might say ( because obviously his other friends care about Will). But he thinks he cares the most. He was even the first to worry about Will not showing up to school, the first to suggest looking for him while speaking to Hopper, and when Hopper and his parents say ‘no’ he sneaks out anyway (and is the first to suggest forming a search party). The first to believe he was alive after seeing his dead body.The only boy to have a scene dedicated solely to him mourning Will. Mike being the only boy to stay awake at the hospital, and the first boy to see and hug Will. The only one to have a private one on one talk before Will goes missing. The only one who was literally given 100s of Will’s drawings. And yet Dustin says Lucas’ is Mike’s best friend? So what does that make Mike and Will?

In s2:

- Will in all 3 seasons identifies as a wizard. But in s2 Mike (the paladin) says Will is a cleric. Meaning this reflects how Mike actually feels about Will. In d&d, they have similar moral values, powers, and generally need and depend on each other in the lore of d&d. Paladins have similar healing powers to clerics, but clerics have stronger healing abilities - which is interesting since Mike has always been viewed as the protector. But to Mike Will has helped him (maybe deal with the loss of El and other trauma) , just by being there. And if Mike says Will is a cleric,despite Will still identifying as a wizard in s3, it shows how deeply Mike actually feels about Will. It shows he views Will as one of the only people who understands him and views him as a healing presence and his moral compass.

“ strength of conviction gave many paladins a sense of common fellowship but did not always endear them to others. In many cases, paladins did not get along quite as well with other non-paladin adventurers, with the exception of clerics with similar beliefs.”

“A Paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous Paladin is fallible. Sometimes the heat of emotion causes a Paladin to transgress his or her oath (of honesty, courage, compassion, honor ,and duty). A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.”

This proves Mike knows he treats Will special/different than his other friends- and unlike a relationship with El (they are still individuals who are not dependent on each other). And Mike thinks being with Will quite literally makes him a better person. Juxtaposed with how him being in a romantic relationship with El made him blind and apathetic to those closest to him .

- All the mileven s1 parallels vs byler s2 parallels were ALL initiated by Mike. If the parallels were meant to show a one sided love triangle (on Mike’s end). They would of made Will the instigator not Mike! Parallels can be watched here , start at 6:50)

-Mike initiated the “crazy together’ line- and in s3 he said ‘blank makes you crazy’. So subconsciously he knew the line had romantic connotations.

-Mike initiating the hand hold (with a zoom in shot) and in the show this is only done for romantic pairings. Also Mike being the one to initiate the ‘arm thing’ which is generally romantic. But in s3 , Lucas also does this, saying “I am spending quality time with my girlfriend’

-Mike saying, asking him to be his friend was the “best thing I’ve ever done”

-Mike constantly following Will around, asking if he’s okay or biking to his house to check on him in s2 . In s3 running out to chase Will to the garage and apologizing, and running into a storm to apologize a 2nd time.

YOU SEE A PATTERN! Mike is whipped! And is the one constantly chasing and pursuing Will, not the other way around! Before s3, people always portrayed Will as the (stereotypical- problematic trope of a) sad-pinning-gay in a one sided love with Mike. It’s like people didn’t even watch the show (and just assigned tropes/stereotypes they wanted, that weren’t actually there). Will (probably too shy or scared to- because of homophobic taunts) never initiated a single byler moment- it was ALWAYS Mike!!! If people were actually objective, they would of thought it was Mike who was the one pinning!

- Which brings me to Mike literally pinning! Mike forcing Will to dance with a girl (who has a rainbow hairclip), but you literally see Mike’s shocked expression like ‘what,why’d I do that ?’ And after this, they show Dustin looking sad about Max/Lucas dancing and then they have Mike get into the frame (next to Dustin) and look sad when Will/girl are dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these last 2 shots.

the cannon Spotify playlists-called ‘Mike’s basement beats’- These are character playlists that Spotify and St worked on together after s2.

-his first song is “small town boy” an 80s LGBT anthem about living in a small town and being queer and bullied. Every band member was openly gay.

-his 11th song is ‘don’t you want me’ from a “celebrate your gay pride” album

* But queer people are “delusional” for thinking Mike isn’t straight? And are told to “open your eyes and watch the show” (that was an actual quote in the byler tag). Ok? Take your own advice, then! XD

One of the Duffers cited inspirations for ST is SUPER GAY (and what they based the byler dynamic off of).

In the Will comic, Will throws an old 1970s book called “house of stairs” at the demorgorgan. And in a later chapter Mike and Will just read together at the library (just silently reading together, enjoying each others’ company-totally not a romantic cliche).And Mike warns Will the book ‘could have spoilers’ for the d&d campaign. Also look at this byler-centric cover :)

Peter (Will) is shy, quiet ,initially a pushover, and gay-coded. And as a coping mechanism he has psychological-breaks with reality where he thinks of his best friend from the orphanage, Jasper (Mike) . Another kidnapped boy, named Oliver (who looks just like Jasper/Mike) is also queer-coded (but a violent-sociopath). And, unlike Jasper who actually wanted to protect/take care of Peter -Oliver starts to gets a sick thrill out of making Peter dependent on him (which Peter catches on to pretty quickly). Oliver was insistent on being the only one to ‘wake’ Peter from his episodes (just like how Mike did for Will, in s2), except Oliver calls him pet-names like “sweetheart, baby, etc.”

And again to prove it’s queer-coded I’ll read some of the (shortened) quotes, in the order they were written. These are quotes from Peter (Will’s) pov talking about his childhood best-friend Jasper (Mike) .

-“his room. His and jaspers room. Jasper looking up from his desk, smiling glad to see him. Jasper saying . Something very important. The most important message, the secret message. He couldn’t hear him . But jasper keeps smiling , keeps talking . What was the message, jasper? What was the message? The dream had been beautiful at the beginning, terrible at the end, but he longed to be in it again. If only he hadn’t awakened.”

-“Jasper sitting on the bed and taking off his shoes ,smiling, ‘you’re okay pete, you’re better than a hundered of those slobs put together. Tomorrow I’ll tell them so myself‘ jasper’s strong, hard body as he got into bed ,so different from peter’s. Strong, to protect him to take care of him. Jasper, who always took care of him”.

-“He wanted to think about oliver it it was like having Jasper back again. It would disturb him to see Oliver go off with Abigail… the rejection quite painful. It had never been like that with Jasper…jasper.

-The room they shared with rainbow colors, murmuring comforting words to him , enclosing and protecting him. He let himself drift into it, the rainbow hues dimness.”

-“No one ever depended on him. It was he who always depended on others, on Jasper. jasper, who had always taken care of him. Jasper…”

later he admits his feelings for Jasper to Lola/el. Lola and Pete are plantonic soulmates. The only reason why they survive and don’t succumb to their dark and violent urges/psychological brainwashing is because of each other. Lola has brown hair and eyes and has a buzzcut and is heavily implied to be a lesbian (as she is the only girl in the group who is not fooled by Oliver’s ‘nice guy act’. Which makes the other girls ‘suspicious’ and alienate her). Also this was written in the 70s… she has a buzzcut and is said to “look like a boy”. It’s not that subtle! There was a reason that the author whose first name was WILLIAM (was suspected to be gay/bi when he was alive)! XD

-Peter says “ he was my friend we were always together . Jasper his name was jasper .in the dream he’s taking care of me’. Now he was beginning to cry, his throat constricting and tears welling up in his eyes .’taking care of me … he always took care of me… taking care of me, and , and … and loving me’. ‘”It was the best time in your life’ she murmured’. ‘Yes’ “

* cough protective childhood friend, rainbows, ‘best time of your life = best thing I ever did.

S3 ending (byler centric ending)

When we first see Mike during the Hopper mologue, the moving truck leaves. “Like you’re pulling away from me or something. I miss playing board games every night (d &d)”… (the last thing they talked about was Will visiting to play d&d and their fight this season started because of a disagreement about d&d.)

Then Mike looks back at the Byers house (just lingers there and looks back as his friends leave) like how Will did seeing Mike hold hands with El and leave . “But I know you’re getting older, growing, changing. I guess, if I’m being really honest, that’s what scares me. I don’t want things to change.”Mike , like Will “doesn’t want things things to change”. He doesn’t want his his feelings of friendship to become romantic in regards to Will, it “scares” him (especially in rural 80s Indiana). Right after Will cries, it immediately switches to Mike hugging his mom- to mirror the time he thought Will died in s1 “So I think maybe that’s why I came in here, to try and maybe stop that change. To turn back the clock. To make things go back to how they were.” He goes back to his mother for comfort, like he did the 1st time he lost Will. But also to reverse back time, to s1, before he realized his feelings for Will were romantic. When things were simpler.

“But I know that’s naive. It’s just not how life works. It’s moving, always moving, whether you like it or not. And yeah, sometimes it’s painful. Sometimes it’s sad. And sometimes, it’s surprising. Happy.” (byler endgame)

Will (in s2) even says everyone treats him like ‘freak/ that something is wrong with him’ (purposely leaving out Mike from the discussion). And then when Will disparages himself as a freak,and Jonathan agrees but asks Will, ‘who would he rather be friends with- David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers’? And when Will says Bowie, Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”.

So, it’s just another coincidence that when Will ‘dies’ (in s1) a David Bowie song (‘we can be heroes’) plays. And as Mike hugs his mom, mourning Will - a romantic lyric from the song plays during the hug?“And we kiss, as though nothing could fall. And the shame” (which is heavily queer coded)?

And then in the last ep (in s3) Mike mirrors this scene in s1, hugging his mom, since he feels like he’s losing Will all over again. And right after the hug (‘we can be heroes’) plays again!? I’m not saying byler is endgame. But- WAIT THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I’M SAYING! XD

These men literally invented ‘hetero-baiting’ (with Robin & Steve) and you think they’re going to queer bait?!

Also, if Will was a girl named ‘Willow” no one would call byler ‘delusional’ ! Even the most casual viewer would say it’s obvious they’d end up together in the end!

If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance). Mike only meeting El cause he was looking for Willow. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Willow!” . Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Willow. Mike only getting angry at El when he thinks she lied about Willow being alive. Mike being the only boy who has a scene dedicated to his loss of her (with the same romantic lyrics playing). Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died. Mike being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. People probably would of started shipping it the second Willow stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El!

If Will was Willow, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! . Mike having s2 byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Willow’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried. That shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)” The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). In s2 if Mike sadly watched Willow dance with another guy , while Dustin does the same to Max. Forget it- everyone would already know mileven would be doomed to fail.

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They parallel the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complains and burps on the couch vs apologizing to Willlow multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willow having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Willow says ‘yeah, crazy together’). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willlow all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time, and doesn’t kiss back. And saying he doesn’t remember saying “I love” you to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Willow about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Willow on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike, be him looking back at Willow’s house, and have that whole monologue about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Willow was dead, signifying he lost her again. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, we wouldn’t be ‘delusional’! It would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Willow over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.

*S3-I’m not repeating my literal essays but they’re probably better than this post so here are the links to pretty much all my s3 byler meta. (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x)

gif credit: 1st few have the name stark in the gifs, 2nd byler gif (found on wheheart.com- user dream_daisy, not sure if they also have a Tumblr , 3rd livelovecaliforniadreams, 4th &10th Cath-avery, 5& 6th unknown, 7-9 eggogorgon . Tell me if you know the unknown one so I can give credit , please.

#byler #byeler

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