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#BUT WHAT IF WE JUST REPLACED HER WITH BETTER CHLOE
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It’s something that Thomas thinks we’re obligated to like Zoe and think that she’s SUPERIOR to Chloe just for the mere fact that “she’s sweet”, and anyone who doesn’t “just doesn’t get it”.
But…
What has Zoe REALLY done to be entitled to our love?
Let’s just take away Chloe from this for a sec, just a sec, seriously. What really IS IT about Zoe that’s any better than Chloe, other than being sweet?
Listen, I LOVE a good sweet, caring, nice and kind character! I really do (probably even my favourite kind), but even I KNOW that there’s more to making a great character other than making them “sweet”. There’s more positive personality traits in the world than just being nice, especially when “being nice” should be the bare minimum? As bland as the miraclass is, they DO have their own personalities. It might not be complex, but they DO have one. Hell, EVEN SABRINA AND LUKA have more personality than Zoe does.
Giving a bland character EVERYTHING on a silver patter, especially if they just arrived in a series, is NOT character development nor adding character depth. And this is not me trying to put Zoe in a bad light or anything! I just legitimately want to know what’s so special about her for her to deserve automatic praise??? If he wants us to like Zoe, then we at least deserve to have something more from her than her just “being nice” and being a Chloe replacement.
Her being Marinette 2.0. is not enough.
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nobodyfamousposts · 11 months
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Can we ask about the otome au? It’s one of my favorite au’s and I’ve been so curious about it but it’s been a while since anything was mentioned about it.
If we can, has anything changed and/or any new details kinda sprung up in the lull interval?
Certainly!
It's a little odd since Lila is pretty much the Lila as we know her from canon while Felix and Luka are not. I originally just thought of the transmigrated into an otome game setup as an explanation as to why Lila would say Ladybug "betrayed" her. Since originally, Ladybug never does anything with Lila except protect her from akumas and support her as a hero and eventual replacement for the Ladybug Hero.
A couple additions are in regards to Gabriel and Chloe.
With Chloe being the "villainess" of the otome game, she's got a pretty poor fate set up for her. Unless SHE ends up isekaied as well, the only way for her to really avoid this fate would be if someone else helped her change. In this case, it would either have to be a result of some machinations of Lila that end up making Chloe act against her in a way that would be a benefit to everyone else (aka: reveal she's a liar and manipulator) OR it would take Felix or Luka to have some influence on her. Alternatively, they could push Adrien to be a better influence on Chloe by holding her accountable. If Chloe would change for anyone, it would be for Adrien.
Lila never really bothered with any route of the game other than Adrien's. Both the Hero side and the Civilian side. But neither side actually revealed Gabriel was Hawk Moth. The DLC alluded to it, but again, Lila never bothered with it, so she's as lost on Hawk Moth's identity as she is on Ladybug's new "role" in the game. Of course, that's not going to stop her from trying to find out who he is and make an alliance if it means taking out Ladybug for "interfering".
Felix and Luka have a strange duality.
Luka knows only the bare basics about the game—monsters attack, heroes help, and people who are now his friends and family get targeted. The problem is that he doesn't know just HOW these incidents occur or turn out, just that it's all ultimately supposed to be up to this one girl to resolve the problems. So he is understandably concerned that the girl in question doesn't seem particularly inclined to help and thus takes it upon himself to try and fix things or protect his new friends and family.
Felix, on the other hand, HAS the information about the game. He just doesn't care.
They end up forming a partnership that eventually turns into friendship. Albeit mostly because Luka forces the matter and Felix is just dragged along for the ride.
Felix: Why not? It can't be worse than what the game would originally have had me do.
Luka has always wanted a little sister. And now he has one in the form of a little goth cutie. The especially hilarious thing is that there is really no difference between Luka pre or post isekai. Both versions of Luka adore Juleka.
Luka (First Morning He Wakes Up): (Hugs Juleka) OMG I have the cutest sister in the world!
Juleka: (Nonplussed) Do you have to do this every morning?
Luka is...less than pleased when he realizes he is one of the potential capture targets. Especially when he realizes the type of girl Lila is.
...although......
Hear me out: since Luka knows only the basics about the game, what if he doesn't know who the Heroine is?
What if he thinks it's Marinette?
Luka: Okay, to help protect my new family and resolve any potential issues, I just need to find the Heroine. But where do I even start looking for her?
Marinette: I'm Ma-Ma-Marinette.
Luka: ...there she is!
Of course, he's not happy when Felix corrects him.
Luka: But she's cute and huggable and so darn lovable! Who else could be the Heroine if she isn't?
Felix: Well...
...he's even LESS happy when he finds out who the Heroine IS.
Luka: I'm sorry, you're saying WHAT?
Felix: (Sigh) The Heroine of this game is Lila Rossi.
Luka: ...the sausage-haired girl?!
And it only snowballs from there.
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anxresi · 11 months
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…Isn’t it a bit late for April Fools Day?! 🤡🤣
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I was going to just write a few snarky remarks in the tags, but fuck it… I have a bit of time on my hands right now, so let’s tackle these somewhat disingenuous statements one at a time shall we? Starting from the one in the top left hand corner, and working our way anti-clockwise around… *Cracks knuckles*
1. Yep. SO nice in fact, she doesn’t have any other noticeable character trait. ‘Niceness’ by itself doesn’t make you an interesting, intriguing or compelling character… it just makes you boring. In fact, I’m gonna have to work pretty damn hard to finish this off before I nod off just thinking about her… 🥱
2. …And this is a GOOD thing? It just proves how much the writers were DESPERATE to make her Chloe’s replacement they rushed virtually everything to do with her, including her rapid induction to ‘Hero’. Most of the other Miraculous users had to wait AGES to get their chance, and Lil Miss Perfect just turns up in Paris and gets her chance virtually the first day. It wasn’t earned, it wasn’t believable… it was just handed to her on a silver platter because… reasons. 😩
3. So what? This is just yet more evidence that this girl, a TOTAL STRANGER up to S4 is all of a sudden being treated like the queen of all Mary Sues. Just listen to all the endless shilling about her from the rest of the cast (especially Marinette and, more depressingly Plagg) Now imagine them said in Thomas Astruc’s voice as he lays his case against Chloe… and everything should become clear.
4. This means virtually nothing. Everyone gets their Miraculous permanently at the end of S5, so the fact she gets her’s 5th is just down to a quirk in sequence. If anything, I’m surprised she didn’t get it sooner… in another gratuitous ‘Take That’ to diehard Chloe fans… 😬
5. I don’t even have anything to say about this.. it calculates the precise sum of 0.00% in terms of her worth of a character. You got anything better?
6. Oh, you mean the same acting ‘skills’ that she used to manipulate her sister into pretending she ‘loved’ her and to carry that useless charm about?The thing is, everyone might’ve SAID her talent was great in that AWFUL Queen Banana episode… but it actually wasn’t. Just because the other characters say she’s the next Sophia Loren, doesn’t mean the viewers don’t have eyes and ears. But I guess if they’re stupid enough to fall for Lila’s incredibly obvious lies when the plot demands it, anything’s possible…
7. What, you like her colorful shoes? This is possible the only one I’ll grant you (they ARE pretty snazzy) but at the end of the day, they’re just pointless aesthetics. Anyone else could be wearing them, and the garish colors can’t blind us to her all-conquering mediocrity. Moving on…
8. Here’s a hint: NEVER use the word ‘objectively’ when the opposite is clearly true. She’s not just ‘sweet’, spending time with her is akin to being pinned down in Wonka’s chocolate factory being force-fed candy by all the Oompa-Lumpas until you literally explode. Not a pleasant experience in other words, thanks to the writers laying this sole facet on with a literal trowel and shovel.
As for the ‘sass’ part… nope, not seeing it. Unless you mean the occasional scene when she ‘deals’ with her sister… these parts were obviously only put in to throw red meat for the Chloe-hating sheep out there could hoot and holler at the screen (probably waking their parents up in the process) whilst screaming “SEE? THAT’S WHAT YOU GET!!” Well, I hope you’re happy now. You hapless lame-o’s.
9. Mary Sues don’t get ‘character assassinated’. They get bigged-up, cheered, given every resource in the show to be Da Best… but NEVER wrecked in that manner. Her sister, on the other hand… 😢
I would argue though, that what she is, is WORSE than character assassination… she’s an individual that never should’ve existed in the first place. In fact, I’d barely even describe her as a character. A plot device, a waste of space, a product of Thomas Astruc’s inexplicable raging hatred against Chloe maybe, but not a serious character. As the popular meme goes, Change My Mind (you won’t).
10. …You’re REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel now, aren’t you?
Besides, this hasn't even been confirmed yet. We don't even know anything about the elusive Mr Lee, or even what he might think about his daughter being forcibly adopted by the Mayor. Something which I'm sure a show of such grandiosity and ambition will go into at great length.. Nah, just kidding!
Next, you’ll be telling me that somehow her sexuality is another reason to think she’s the best thing since sliced bread…
11. And there we have it (sigh). How terribly predictable. 🙄
I’ve already done a whole post thingie about how her being a lesbian and having a short-lived crush on Marinette was just imposed to get unearned brownie points from underrepresented communities when they won’t actually do anything with said revelation, so I’ll keep this short. Sufficed to say though, I feel like starting a hashtag… #TheGaysDeserveBetterThanZoe. Get it trending, peeps! 😎
12. Whatever you’re smoking, can I have some of it? This is crossing the line from ‘delusional’ to ‘crazy’ now. She’s remained as static as a statue since her opening episode, has NO room for change and growth due to the fact she was only brought in to replace Chloe and in that uncomfortably dull niche she’ll stay. Sorry, but just because you wish that she’d had any kind of interesting development doesn’t mean she has. Facts have a funny habit of getting in the way of the truth.
13. In turns of ticking boxes for diversity, French-Americans aren’t exactly a high priority IMHO. But sure if you think that makes her the bees knees (pun intended), you go ahead and celebrate it. 👍
14. So in conclusion, I do agree that Zoe Lee is indeed ‘Best’ character… (hears sharp intake of breathes all round) oops, I’m sorry. What I meant was ‘Pest’ character… in that just having her buzzing about in all her flawless Mary-Sue glory makes you just wanna reach for the bug spray.
You know, like you would for a pesky wasp during a delicious picnic. Because she’s Vesperia, get it? 🤪
The only upside to this sad situation is, from what I can tell (being strictly a non-watcher these days, you figure out why) the writers half-agree with me.
After all for such an 'amazing' character who's apparently achieved so much in her short time in the show... why is she barely featured? They must know, somewhere down deep in their artistic brains, she's a narrative dead zone.
A collection of tiresome off-the-shelf quirks, traits and spare parts (someone here said she was like a bad fanfiction self-insert... ABSOLUTELY RIGHT), loosely held together with visible stitching and hastily assembled together like Frankenstein's Monster for the most cynical of reasons.
She has no arguable reason to be in the show, apart from being a far inferior replacement to the potential mine of character development that someone like Chloe could've represented.
I guess Thomas really does hate complex characters who may overshadow his precious Marinette... or school bullies who traumatized him so much as a lil kid he specifically wrote someone into his show he could subsequently and systematically destroy (as the rumors go... but it wouldn't surprise me with THAT guy).
Now I’m off to bed, but let me end on at least ONE positive note for this much-maligned individual: She’s EXACTLY the kind of character a show like Miraculous Ladybug deserves… and if you like her, you deserve her too.
Now, good night. 🌝 🛌
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miracleandplagueau · 10 months
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So I just stumbled across your page, and I absolutely love your redesigns for the characters.
I was wondering what your rough plan for Chloe's character was? Since I saw that you're not using Zoe.
Chloe....
My plan for her isn't all that complicated, It's literally to give her her well deserved redemption arc.
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First of all, I'm keeping all of the episodes before Queen Wasp that featured some sort of development from her, ending on Style Queen where we find out why she was being a mean bitch. After giving up the miraculous, Miraculer (or an episode similar to that) will happen to explain to Chloe why she can't be Queen Bee anymore. But that's basic stuff, let's talk about bigger changes.
Obviously, being raised with everything given to her on a silver platter, she won't be able to compeltely get it out of her system. She's not going to be super encouraging or nice, but she'll be tolerable to others - especially Sabrina. Over the episodes, her and Sabrina are going to grow closer. Sabrina at one point will have a very heated argument with Chloe which will result in a break-up of their friendship, but I really want Chloe to work on that - to realize that she's better than her habits and need for attention and will actually start seeing Sabrina as a true friend and will even start trying to enjoy the little things. The scene where Sabrina brought her cookies but she rejected them for sushi? Nah. She takes that cookie. Visibly apprehensive, and she starts asking for the contents, explaining she doesn't want to ruin her diet, but she takes a bite and maybe even enjoys it!! Sabrina could ask her to come to her favorite shop, but Chloe is so disgusted with the cheap shops, she just takes her shopping in one of the shops she buys clothes in. It's kind of the little things, you know? I might not be able to fulfill all the potential she has, but honeslty anything's better than whatever the fuck happened in canon.
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Now to her superhero persona. Obviously, she won't be able to play superhero too often after Queen Wasp, but that doesn't mean she won't get to do it at all! In one of my previous posts, I illustrated a short, little concept with her, Volpina and Monarch and It's probably going to happen! I won't extend how, but a situation like that is likely to happen. I really hate how the whole "we know that Chloe is Queen Bee" wasn't extended in a really cool way where Chloe could further trick Hawk Moth... they instead did Miracle Queen.
My writing might be a little bit messy and very spoiler-avoidant in case I start making the comic, but in short: Chloe goes from a bully to a sassy friend and there's no need for her to have a Mary Sue sister to replace her :D
She is sass, she is the moment, she is Chloe (I'm a severe Chloe apologist)
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blueberry-bubbles130 · 8 months
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The disappointment of the characterisation of the Bourgeois family in Miraculous Ladybug.
This essay/post will be talking about my feelings regarding the characterisation of Bourgeois family, as I'm doing a rewrite fanfiction of Miraculous and the Bourgeois family plays an extremely important part in my rewrite.
Trigger Warnings include:
TW: Child abuse
Child neglect
Verbal abuse
Emotional abuse
Domestic Violence
If I have forgotten to add any trigger warnings in the post please comment and I'll add them as soon as I can.
Getting this out of the way with now because I don't want to focus on her in this post, and because she won't be in my rewrite at all, I don't like Zoe. In the canon of the show all she serves as is a replacement for Chloe and a wielder of the Bee Miraculous. Unfortunately in the canon show, she is tied to the miraculous and Chloe in such a way that she cannot be talked about with bringing Chloe salt/bashing into the discussion, and has no true character of her own out of just being nice. There are others in the show who already could've filled the role much better. Zoe is far better written in fanon and fanfiction. But I don't want to be beating a long dead horse so there are other posts you can read to see Zoe's poor implementation in the show, and absolutely great fanfictions you can read that gives her a developed character if you like her. With that being said lets get onto the main essay.
Who are the Bourgeois family?
In the show the Bourgeois family are an upper class family that are said to hold a lot of influence. The family consists of Andre Bourgeois; the patriarch of the family who owns a hotel, and is also the mayor of Paris. Audrey Bourgeois; the matriarch of the family and a famous fashion critic. And Chloe Bourgeois; the child of the family and the temporary bee miraculous holder. The Bourgeois family can be considered a large secondary example of Miraculous's wasted potential, and it's inability to truly give a satisfying conclusion to any concept they've tried to execute during it's run. And some will say this is just the end of an arc and season 6 will continue and deliver. But it won't, especially considering Miraculous' record with delivering on expected plotlines it isn't promising in the slightest and I do not hold hope for season 6. Despite this, I'm rather interested in the Bourgeois family, and they are my favourite part of Miraculous making it even more disappointing to see the outcome of the plotline involving them.
Audrey Bourgeois-
I'm doing Audrey Bourgeois first because despite having a lot to say about all the family members, I have the least to say about Audrey.
Audrey is characterised as a harsh fashion critic who has nothing kind to say about anyone around her. Her kind words are only reserved for someone who can truly impress her, examples being Marinette and Gabriel. Marinette being shown to the audience and Gabriel being told to the audience. She is responsible for launching Gabriel into fame as a fashion designer. Audrey isn't even remotely nice to her own family. She abandons them mostly and seems to return only when work arises in Paris. And even then she belittles both her husband and Chloe constantly.
Something I find interesting in fanfiction for Miraculous Ladybug is that before we got any glimpse of who Audrey is. Everyone assumed she'd died and they either called her Simone or Julia, Julie or Juliette. And this gave depth to both Chloe, and Andre. This will be discussed again later.
Audrey's character has at least stayed consistent throughout Miraculous' ever-increasing run, which is a miracle considering Miraculous issues with characterisation, among other issues. However at the same time it's quite odd considering unlike Andre who got more developed regarding his past and what he wants, Audrey remains quite flat character-wise with only glimpses of there possibly something else to her. I think that Audrey despite staying consistent and explaining a lot about Chloe and Andre, she's still wasted potential. In one of the episodes characters such as Gabriel, Natalie and and I think maybe Tomoe are shown watching important story information on a tv. This would seemingly hint that Audrey had something to do with Gabriel. Which is believable considering Audrey's personality and previous appearances with Gabriel. However as of season 5 this has not been expanded upon in anyway whatsoever and like I keep saying I doubt it will be in season 6 or future seasons if they get anymore. This makes me believe that Audrey should've been expanded upon as a villain, she could've stolen a miraculous and possibly became a main villain. She's close to Gabriel, she's got the perfect personality for it; the only thing she needed to be a good villain was a decent motivation and I easily could've believed her becoming a villain if she'd been given decent motivation. She's already controlling and demanding, so Zoe could've never been introduced and you could've had it so she wants ultimate control over Andre and Chloe while placing herself as some sort of evil Queen. And that's all I really have to say about Audrey. Hell! I've already seen a few posts where people state that Audrey should've taken over as mayor after Andre, which makes a hell of a lot more sense then Chloe doing it. It's not exactly the same because she's the stepmother, but something I think Audrey should've been a bit like but far more toned down for the child audience is like Julia Cotton from Hellraiser. She's just so perfect as a example of someone willing to go to extremes in order to achieve their desires. Hell it's already there in her akuma, Style Queen! Just make her an evil queen, it wouldn't have been that hard and then we wouldn't have to deal with that mess we got with them attempting to make Gabriel sympathetic but then being shown him horribly abusing his son with glee at every opportunity he gets. You could keep Gabriel and Natalie sympathetic and make Audrey even more despicable than she is.
Also Audrey is clearly abusive, and in 2023 we should not need to have debates over whether she is because some people say she's just cruel. No she's abusive, it's clearly abuse.
Chloe Bourgeois-
Chloe is definitely my favourite character out of the Bourgeois family and Miraculous as a whole, and while her characterisation post season 3 does sadden and disappoint me, it doesn't anger me like what the writers did with Andre.
Chloe starts the series as nothing more than an obnoxious bully who torments her classmates. When we get to season 2 we get to see Chloe receive more depth as a character and see how her parents helped her in becoming the person she is today. Then season 3 happened and we see Miracle Queen. Now I don't think Miracle Queen is completely horrid, It makes sense that Chloe may begin to regress or backslide into her unhealthy habits. And I've even seen people still redeem her with miracle queen being in their stories. What pisses me off about Miracle Queen, especially when people online talk about it, is that they just seem to forget about Gabriel akumatising Audrey and Andre to use as blackmail against Chloe. Like yes at the end of the day, Chloe still makes the decision to become Miracle Queen and do what she did. But you cannot deny that a fully grown man who should know better, put the two people she presumably cared about the most at this point in danger in order to blackmail her. He cornered her on the balcony and essentially railroaded her into making that decision. Like what was she going to do if she said no, she can't fight Hawkmoth without a miraculous and even if she'd tried he might've legitimately hurt her or her parents to win. Here again we see fanfics just knock the show out of the water, with many people deciding to make Chloe trick Hawkmoth into giving her the miraculous and then she just runs away to get help. Also Marinette shouldn't have gotten involved in Chloe's family drama, like why did she think it was a good idea to do what she did in Queen wasp. Just why?
Something else regarding Chloe's character arc that just genuinely confuses me is that during season 2 it's obvious in episodes like Zombizou, Style Queen, Queen Wasp and Malediktator is that they're written by other writers who have differing opinions on Chloe to Thomas Astruc. And now I think Thomas was busy on a different project while this was was being written, which is fine. But what confuses me is that surely Thomas could've looked over the episode script and maybe said to change it. Instead of just letting a character he clearly does not like get development he also didn't like and then arguing with Chloe fans and Miraculous fans who may not like Chloe but understand her character arc was butchered as well as others, on twitter over it.
As well as this is season 5, I think it's revealed season 1-5 of Miraculous takes place over 1 school year. In France the average school year is about 10 months long lasting from September to late June early July. This means each season could technically take place over about 2 months. This gives Chloe 2-4 months at most to redeem herself. Which is just too much to expect of her to try and completely redeem herself and undo a lifetime of unhealthy behaviours in that short of a timespan. No wonder Miracle Queen happened, she hasn't had the proper support to try and unlearn those behaviours or redeem herself. And it makes Andre giving her over to her mother even more saddening/rage enducing, because Zoe has been around for the same time Chloe was given to try and unlearn her healthy behaviours. So Andre has abandoned his daughter who's he risen for her entire 13-14 year life for some child he's known for about 3 months at best.
Then season 4 and 5 begin the endless parade of Chloe Salt/Bashing in order to prop up Zoe. As well as the butchering of other characters, to continue hammering in that point, such as Andre, but we'll get to him later. Now I'm not saying I'm completely against the idea of evil Chloe, there are some brilliant fanfics out there with Chloe just either hamming it up as an evil villain or treated as a tragic villain, who's fall from grace is a pure tradegy. And I love it both because it treats Chloe with the seriousness she deserves, the majority of fanfics treat the abuse she's suffered with seriousness and not as some joke like the serious does. You want a absolutely brilliant Chloe Bourgeois fanfic read "Float like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee" on ao3 it's just so good and I can't recommend it enough.
Also on the topic of redemptions Sabrina, Felix, Natalie and especially Gabriel shouldn't gotten redemptions. Gabriel, Sabrina and Felix don't show any remorse for their actions, in fact they all show glee in their actions apart from Natalie. But even then none of them truly face any punishments for their actions and sure Gabriel doesn't get to enjoy Emilie being back alive, but he still gets away with his numerous crimes.
As a final note on Chloe's development, it's been said by some people before it's quite harmful that Chloe doesn't get treated with the seriousness that she deserves and is one of the only villains not given a redemption as well as not being what is considered a "perfect" or "idealised" victim of abuse like Adrien is. And as someone who has lashed out at others due to issues with authoritive figures in the past (not to the extent Chloe has thought, especially with the bullying and wealth, I'm also not French) I do relate to Chloe in a small way. And this makes it harder for me personally, and it really is just harmful because it might give kids who have lashed out like her due to similar or the same issues the same idea that they don't deserve love or a guardian who can actually care for them in the way they need, as children.
I'm not saying give Chloe a redemption, she just should've been treat with the seriousness she needed.
Gettting back on track lets talk about the final member of the Bourgeois family.
Andre Bourgeois-
Oh Andre, where do I begin with him, in canon.
For seasons 1 to 3 he's mainly Chloe's nervous father and enabler. Then we get a bit of depth in season 4 and 5 about him wanting to be a director but not getting to due to Audrey and politics. Then in season 5 he lets Audrey take Chloe.
A deleted part of the script was revealed in which originally he gave Chloe to Audrey which in itself is horrific because he knows how Audrey is. Not only has she subjected Chloe to verbal abuse but him as well. This would be changed in the series to him just letting Audrey take Chloe, which is just as worse. These are just as bad because either way he's trying to absolve himself of any responsibility of what happened with Chloe which he is equally responsible for as he is Chloe's main enabler. And you know I actually had some hope for him in canon that he'd realise it was time to as someone else brilliantly put it "ditch the bitch" and forge a better relationship with Chloe, but that never happened. I guess that's what I get for having hope for Miraculous's canon.
It legitimately pisses me off so fucking much than in canon he gets to wash his hands clean of the whole problem with Chloe.
Now fanon Andre is so much better than his Canon counterpart and thinking about it now, Fanon Andre has always been better than his canon counterpart.
Bringing back up the whole thing about fanfics that pre-date Audrey is that it gives not only Chloe but Andre more depth. These fanfics typically paint the picture that Andre is a man that closed off not only by politics but the death of his wife and because he's not in tune with his own emotions, he can't help Chloe so instead of ignoring her grief like her father, Chloe is lashing out instead.
Even fanon versions of Andre that are more far more closed off, corrupt, and evil are much more enjoyable to read about than canon Andre, and have more depth. Something about Canon Andre just makes him even more loathsome and detestable then his many often better fanon versions. And when he does get redeemed in fanon it's just so good, because the people writing him, understand what makes his character have actual depth to him and make him realise his faults in a satisfying way that gives him a good redemption.
Maybe it was just me projecting the fanon versions of Andre onto the Canon version that made my disappointment and anger so much worse. But either way his overall canon characterisation is disappointing.
Again if you want to a fanfic that has Andre be a good antagonist, read "Chloe and the Bee" by @anxresi it isn't complete but what is there is just brilliant. And If you'd prefer to read a fanfiction where Andre is trying his best to be a good parent to Chloe read "Float like a Butterfly....Sting like a Bee" by Bookmonkey on ao3. They're both such amazing fanfics.
Conclusion-
Overall the characterisation of the Bourgeois family within the canon of the actual show is just a neatly packaged example of Miraculous' many issues such as bad writing, poor pacing, inconsistent characterisation and either attempting to poorly redeem abusers who should know better or just letting them get away without any consequences whatsoever.
I'd like to say thank you for listening to my long feral rambles about the Bourgeois family.
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i-like-anything-water · 7 months
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chlonette secret admirer au where pollen leaves her gifts to Marinette because
1.) she can't run fast enough so she'd get caught since for some reason Marinette is both clumsy but athletic af
2.) Pollen can go undetected by technology and people in general
3.) She's trying to be better so she won't abuse her powers as Queen Bee and Pollen offered so technically...
Pollen looks at her holder who's pacing in a circle along the carpeted floor. A bouquet of flowers they handpicked this morning lay on the table along with a box of cupcakes Chloe had made (she lent the materials and ingredients needed because she can't bake to save her life) with Alya's mother and a scented card with her message. It was the common apology gift that humans have had since she was brought to this world yet she finds it cute everytime.
"She's going to think someone broke into her house and left some random objects! Oh god, what if she thinks she has a stalker and feels scared instead?!" Pollen couldn't help but buzz in amusement. She was pretty sure her holder's subject of affections wasn't easily deterred by a stalker. Plus, it wasn't stalking! It was just... mysteriously dropping gifts to a person's room. Huh, she really needs to read more regarding this generation's rules on courtship.
"I don't think that will be the case, My Queen," she's sure Tikki would see her anyway. And she's sure Tikki wouldn't snitch on them, yet. "I can safely deposit the gifts without drawing suspicion or ill-will! However, if you feel as if we are taking a step too far forward, I can leave it in her doorstep instead." While she wanted to help her chosen very much regarding her feelings for the ladybug holder, she valued her comfort and decisions above it.
It will take time, and she's frankly not sure if the feelings would be reciprocated. Granted, the previous ladybug and bee holders did end up eventually and happily but she didn't want to bet her holder's love on simply luck. Still, it was worth taking a risk and she's always excited whenever it's a ladybug holder that's gotten her holder's attention.
"I don't know..." Chloe still looked unsure, her eyes darting to the gifts on the table and back to the floating Kwami. "I'm Chloe Bourgeois and I'm panicking, which is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous!"
Pollen simply looked at her.
Chloe sighed, her shoulders sagging, "but I'm also Chloe Bourgeois and Queen Bee. I'm changing and... Marinette is a good person. If she ever finds out, I at least know she won't make fun of me for it. But god I'd rather wear the same outfit twice than have her find out!"
Pollen smiled as she flew close to the blabbering blonde and laid a paw on her cheek, "We shall find out together, My Queen."
That seemed to ease the hero's nerves, her nervous expression replaced with a confident grin and determination. "Thanks, Pollen. We should get going now. I wouldn't want to miss seeing her!"
"Thank you, Pollen," she smiled warmly at the Kwami, the sun shining through her blonde locks and calm blue eyes. The crown sat snuggly on her head, the gem gleaming like the ocean on a sunny morning. Pollen smiled back, floating to rest atop the blonde's shoulder. "We should get going now. I wouldn't want to miss seeing her!"
Ah, fate. Bees did find ways to see Ladybugs. Pollen wonders how this would turn out this time.
"Pollen, Buzz On!"
The familiar burst of energy flew through the Kwami and she couldn't help the little jump before she was sucked in the comb.
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theerurishipper · 6 months
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After learning about the leaks about Paris special, I just want to say that all of the comics and headcanons fans created speculating how they would be in emoverse are much better than what we got. Wouldn't it be ironic to say that they're born evil like Chloe in ogverse and that some backstory doesn't justify their wrongdoings. They are evil and very much proud of it with either their cringe worthy fails or terrifying terrorism
Agreed. Like, I don't mind the arc they were intending for with Chloe, I don't mind them showing that some people can't change, but then they'll redeem the terrorist/abuser. And they'd rather say that Chloe is just inherently evil without exploring or acknowledging the backstory and motivations they wrote for her. That's the issue here. And now Shadybug and Claw Noir are going to get some half-assed redemption. Honestly, I would have preferred them being evil, you know, like an everyone has a good and bad side in them and who you are depends on the choices you make kind of thing, especially since Miraculous is so fond of redemptions.
I get it, that's just my wish and the show doesn't have to follow my exact preferred storyline to be good, but the information we have doesn't paint a very promising picture either way. Considering the bullshittery of the Season 5 finale and Gabriel's shitty-ass redemption, it really just feels like this special is pushing the Gabe Is Good agenda in our face, you know? I mean, Guardian Angel? For the child abuser in our main continuity? The one who doesn't seem like he did a good job in the alternate timeline either seeing as his son was so unable to process his grief that he became a magical terrorist? This guy is called Guardian Angel? I mean, maybe he did his best, but we won't know until we watch the special, and the show has a habit of blaming Adrien for Gabriel's actions anyway, so. It just feels like it's pushing the "some people are good and some people are evil no matter in what continuity, and Marinette and Adrien are good deep down, and so is Gabriel. But Chloe is just always evil lmaooooo." I don't mind it too much, but shit's still kinda weird, man.
And like, what do you mean "Shadybug and Claw Noir don't even like each other?" That's kind of the whole appeal for a lot of people lmao, and they hate each other? I mean, I'm not going to judge it based on my expectations and say it's bad just because I didn't get what I wanted, but... really? And I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say Hesperia and Claw Noir have no personal interaction despite them being father and son and Adrien's motivation being to bring Emelie back. Like, at a certain point, it crosses the line from being my insignificant expectation to being just... bad choices and an inability to create proper payoff. I think Hesperia interacts more with Marinette than Adrien in this special. Getting major Season 5 finale-esque "Marinette replaces Adrien in his arc" vibes.
But I'm not disappointed, surprising as that sounds. I never expected it to be good. I was always just here to see Claw Noir on screen so I can properly pick him up and toss him into my fanfics. I was excited for the special, sure, but I didn't have my hopes up and the leaks seem to have proved me right. Idk, maybe they'll surprise me. I doubt it though.
Thank you for your ask!
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chaifootsteps · 3 months
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One creator's pet I grew to despise is Marinette/Ladybug from Miraculous Ladybug. What an AWFUL MC. She is an obsessive stalker who memorized the routine of her crush and has the tendency to neglect her partner Cat Noir (Who is Adrien, her crush, btw but she doesn't know)
One of her worst moments was this
https://youtu.be/3KE_fwPOQeo?feature=shared
Which is her being generally creepy and obsessive over what she thinks is a wax statue but her going into detail about "it" smelling and feeling just like him is just...ugh.
And to top it off she's based on a "what-if" child with his ex, Sabine. Even named Marinette's mom and dad after him and her.
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Btw, Thomas Astruc is Vivziepop but as a man. Like legitimately the most passive aggressive, shallow, and downright immature person and changes the plot randomly if it is not to his liking EVEN WHEN EVERYONE LOVED IT. What he did to Chloe's character was way worse than what Viv did to Stella and a large majority in the Fandom were upset with his treatment of the characters ALL BECAUSE he didn't like how people were starting to like a character who is based off his bully as a child....so he regressed her into a worse character, gave her a sister that was NEVER EVER BROUGHT UP before hand, and had HER replace Chloe. Btw her sisters name is "Zoe"....and she has NO interesting traits other than to be a nicer version of Chloe. Chloe also came from a very neglectful and dysfunctional family that was only starting to get better so that just added more pain to it all. Chloe gets shafted for being bad while living a rather dysfunctional life, while Marinette who had a rather stable and structured life gets away with being obsessive, neglectful, and ignorant because "She does no wrong". Marinette is the best example for Creators pet.
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One last entry for the creator's pet pile, because we do love to see a long list of receipts.
Also, what an unprofessional prick. I can see why you guys are always comparing this dude to Vivzie.
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weird but maybe simple question: why does lila exist if chloe was going to go from a possible redemption arc back into a bully? if you've already got one bully character, why add another one? should i just blame TA like i do for most things?
Yeah basically.
Seriously if you are giving Chloé a redemption arc, then Lila easily fills the hole left by her in that we need a smaller-scale antagonist for the Civilian B-Plots of the episodes.
What I mean by this is episodes like Season 1's Darkblade. Where the A-Plot is the thing with Hawkmoth and the Akuma of the Day, but the B-Plot is about the class election. Both plots tie into one another and have their respective antagonists at believable scales, Hawmoth being the Big Bad and Chloé being a problem that Mari can't superhero away but she has to deal with the way any normal girl would.
With Chloé getting better, you wouldn't have as many episodes with her as a direct antagonist. She can still cause conflict, such as it is with Season 3 episodes like Miraculer where she did something to spark a problem, but she's much like any of the other classmates who screws up and feels bad about it and works to fix it by the end(though she's still learning so it's a touch shakier than if Mari did it). But she's not a direct antagonist who is causing problems for Marinette on purpose.
This is where Lila comes in. She replaces Chloé's role as Civilian Antagonist. Someone in Marinette's normal life that she can't just fix by becoming Ladybug(for the most part), she has to work around whatever they're doing.
And similarly to how the A-Plot upped the stakes by making them have to deal with not just Akumas but also Sentimonsters, Lila similarly ups the stakes in the B-Plot by being an upgrade to Chloé's meanness. Lila is a bully, but she's also a manipulator. She's not someone who just insults Mari and abuses power but can be rallied against by an inspiring speech. The class thinks that Lila is a good person and she's here to play people against each other by manipulating them.
However.
When TA decided to scrap Chloé's redemption arc and shove Zoé into her role on the Team, there was no longer a place for her. Lila had already become the main antagonist for the B-Plots, and if they make Chloé an effective antagonist then that takes away from Lila's importance and building her up as a more dangerous bully and the next big bad. So they nerf Chloé into being mean but incompetent to keep Lila as 'better'.
So yeah they don't really know what to do with Chloé because she's been replaced as both Hero and Villain, so all they /can/ do is make her mean but such a pathetic threat.
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PROPAGANDA
CHLOE BOURGEOIS (MIRACULOUS LADYBUG) (CW: Child Abuse)
1.) Girl was done so dirty… She was starting to develop and could've had a redemption arc and then they made her even more one-dimensional than she was at the start, dumbed her down, and the creator on twitter claimed she was never abused and that she never cared about her childhood friend, only his status. And in a scene that thankfully got cut by editors, her father was going to disown her, adopt her sister instead (who is like a "nicer" replacement for her) and pass Chloe onto her abusive mother.
And then a male character gets introduced who is also at first an antagonist with a backstory that gets revealed later, also a childhood friend of the same character, but it's acknowledged that he got abused by his parent and he gets a redemption arc and a romantic subplot and a spot on the hero team (which Chloe was excluded from because she was irresponsible with her power and revealed her identity publicly… Except he also did that)
This show is about girl power btw.
2.) Chloe was done so fucking dirty. So basically, the creator of the show (Thomas Astruc) created the character in the first place as a stand-in for his childhood bully (red flag no.1) Because of this, any development that she as a character got from the other writers (and it was a lot) got retconned, just because he hated her. Other, objectively much more evil, (male) characters (the main villain!) were portrayed as more sympathetic than her, because god forbid a hurt, abused, emotionally immature, unloved little girl be portrayed as anything other than an unlovable, unforgiveable unchangeable demon. Also she's obsessed with clothes, shoes and handbags, because she's a mean girl, don't you see, so obviously the nice girls (who don't wear makeup while Chloe does) are better than her.
3.) Stuck up spoiled rich girl is treated as worse than the actual villains of the show. At some point we get a glimpse into her awful traumatizing home life and she starts to be redeemed, but the second something doesn't go her way she backslides and is suddenly even more evil and dumb. Also her father is incredibly neglectful but it's portrayed as her somehow abusing him into doing what she wants and he's so sad about his awful evil daughter. He gets a redemption arc but never actually becomes a better father. She's seen as unfixable.
MILLA MAXWELL (TALES OF XILLIA) (CW: Inappropriate Age Gaps)
1.) Milla was the first female MC in a Tales game. Xillia actually has dual protagonists; Milla is a female demigod on a mission to stop global warming, while the other one, Jude, is a male med student who gets dragged into her quest. The game says that you can play as Jude or Milla… except it’s extremely obvious you are meant to play Jude’s route, and play it first. Why? Because Milla dies at the end of act 2. The plot continues in Jude’s route. If you’re on Milla’s route, you do not get to see it. Instead, you wander around heaven for a while until you’re booted back into the world of the living as a deus ex machina. It is impossible to follow. Milla doesn’t get to reckon with her own death, while her friends all get to reckon with it offscreen. All of this character drama is conveyed to her through two skippable conversations. Playing this was completely infuriating, not to mention confusing. Even in her own route she’s written as the cool, mysterious hyper-competent woman.
I have a lot of issues with the plot of this game (it’s bad!) but that’s the bitterest.
2.) 1.) If you decide to play Milla’s route, and not Jude’s route, there is a part of the game where Milla has her spine broken by the villain, and you are forced to play as Jude anyway. Her paralysis is resolved with little fanfare (the important part of this life-altering injury was Jude fighting to defend her honour, of course).
2.) (CW: inappropriate age gaps) Milla is 20, but she’s teased as a ship with the other PC Jude, who is 15 (despite being a university student? I have no idea why they did this; most Tales protagonists are 17-21). You might say “hey wait, it would be extremely inappropriate for her to be interested in him, as he is a teenager and she is an adult!” Well, first of all, it never actually seems like she is interested in him, like at all. This plot is solely about the fantasy of having a hot older woman attracted to you, presented for the presumed male audience, presumed to be playing as Jude. If you’re playing as Milla it is a totally bizarre informed plot that comes out of nowhere. Also, I guess to get around any objections to the age gap, the game pulls a “born sexy yesterday” type dynamic with Milla, where she might be a 20-year-old demigod but really she knows nothing about human society and Jude the prodigy has to teach her. Everything about this is extremely terrible from every angle—I don’t think the writers even thought of “teenage boy shipped with adult woman” as much of a problem because of the genders. And from Milla’s end the relationship is totally incomprehensible. They didn’t think about why she would be interested in Jude, because what’s important is that Jude has women who are interested in him (she’s one of 3+).
In the sequel, there’s an alternate universe version of Milla whose love interest is the PC of that game, a guy the same age as her. I was so relieved! They actually “are both adults” and “have anything in common”! Unfortunately this hint of a relationship ends when the alternate Milla is sent to super hell (not only dead but her soul erased from existence) for contrived plot reasons. We are supposed to be okay with this, because she believes she deserves to die. Why? Because her actions in this universe apparently indirectly caused Jude’s death as a baby. Even though she barely knows Jude, he is, of course, the most important person in the universe, and so the only moral option is for her to die by suicide. ARGH.
Again, I can’t emphasize this enough: she was presented as the groundbreaking first female PC of a Tales game. And we were let down SO BAD.
3.) Since you’re looking for propaganda, Milla Maxwell. Very skimpy outfit. Their justification? She has a handmaid that designed and created her clothes. But the handmaid is a 16 year old boy who’s in love with her. And she has no idea about human society, so she’s just like. Ivar put in so much effort, I’ve been assured this is fashionable. She spends a 2 hour section of the game in another plane of existence, in a skin tight white body suit with cut outs at the boobs and inner thighs
In the sequel, her outfit is almost as bad, but this time she chose it and they don’t even discuss it 🙃
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erisluna35 · 1 year
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Zoe Lee Rant
As the title says, this is a rant about Zoe Lee that I just had to get out of my system. If you like her, I suggest not reading any further than this. This will contain some spoilers from the leaks as of late, which reignited my distaste for this “character”.
I just can’t with this “character”. I think calling her a character is generous as it is. Zoe just can’t trigger any emotions with me besides strong dislike, and even that fades away into nothingness in between episodes where she actually does shit.
First Impressions:
The way she was introduced, it’s like something out of a cliche OC fanfic. From being the new girl in Paris, a long lost relative of a canon character, instantly getting the approval of the rest of the cast and everyone going on and on about her like she’s the greatest thing since sliced bread... We’re off to a bad start. All that shilling her down my throat made me puke her back out. The show spent more time telling its audience to like this character than showing us stuff about her we might actually like. And I saw nothing.
Character Concept:
It was obvious what she was supposed to be from the start: a cheap replacement for Chloe. She is made of all things good and nice and everything Chloe is not. Beyond the shilling, what does she even have? A pleasant personality? That’s hardly unique, it’s practically everyone who isn’t labelled a villain. She’s just some nobody who bends the narrative backwards to praise her the same way Lila bends the narrative to get people to believe her half-baked lies - but at least Lila does something. What even is the point of Zoe? Chloe is right there. We could’ve just combined their character concepts and have a functional character instead of one character that’s half-baked and the other barely leaving an imprint on the show.
Leaks:
It was obvious they were gonna drop the ball hard on Chloe’s characterization this season. But even when Astruc is doing everything he could to make everyone hate Chloe and like Zoe, all his attempts just kept backfiring.
Kwami’s Choice having Zoe be the temporary black cat? Ugh. No. Can’t she do anything besides stealing plot lines from other characters? This should’ve been Nino. And if not, Kagami deserves it more than Zoe. Heck, I’d rather see Luka be the new cat. There are plenty of characters I’d rather see as the temporary black cat than Zoe. And just when I thought they could make up for it in execution, what do we get? The most horrid hero design ever to grace the show. Character wise, there’s just nothing much going on. She feels like a blank slate.
Adoration reveals Zoe had a crush on Marinette all along. So she’s a lesbian? She’s gay for a character who’s never gonna return her feelings? Why is Zoe getting to come out of the closet over JuleRose or MarcNath who are right there, implied to be dating and can represent better than Zoe??? I doubt they’d even be explicit about this. The show will definitely be vague so it can be broadcasted to China or something. I’m calling it now. This is irrelevant. Oh! And there’s something about her evil half sister trying to frame Zoe for theft, but meh. I’m not concerned in the slightest. Because every time Zoe is in trouble, it gets resolved within the same fucking episode. Who cares about struggles?
In Emotion, she got to help Marinette get into the diamond ball by giving her her mask. Hooray for plot convenience! That’s her strongest narrative purpose, make things convenient for Marinette. She is such a plot device.
Derision in contrast reveals how Chloe caused Marinette some serious trauma which is the root cause of Marinette’s troubles in confessing to Adrien... Am I supposed to hate Chloe over this? It’s not like this is anything new. Yawn. I get it, Astruc wants us to see Chloe as this child monster, but this isn’t breaking new ground with her character and showing this flashback this late after making Chloe so cartoonishly evil for the past two seasons... It’s way too late for me to feel anything about this. Where was this backstory during Dark Cupid? This should’ve come up during Season 2 at latest. Now, this piping hot scoop went cold.
Revolution is where she... runs for mayor? Becomes a dictator?? Gets akumatized??? And I thought salt fics had it bad. But this isn’t the worst part. By the end of her character arc for this season, this happens:
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Her own father abandoned her! WHAT THE FUCK. So, the man who raised Chloe, the one who enabled her worst traits... He gets to wash his hands off the “monster” he made and start over with the perfect “angel”! What about his real daughter?! The one he watched personally grow up?! Why isn’t he taking responsibility for her?! He just gets to start over with a daughter who’s perfect from the start with zero effort?!?!
I swear, I’m not a Chloe stan, but I am mad on her behalf for this. I actually felt sorry for her.
And it doesn’t end there. I wish it ended there.
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This is how Chloe ends Season 5. This is not the cathartic happy ending the writers think it is. I am personally horrified for what’s going to happen to Chloe now that she’s stuck with Aubrey.
Now, what is the point of this Chloe Segway? It’s to show how no matter how Astruc tries to paint Chloe as this irredeemable villain, I still felt more for her than Zoe. I felt upset on her behalf, but Zoe? I felt nothing for her all season.
Unfortunate Implications:
Both Chloe and Zoe are victims of abuse, but only Zoe deserves to get help and sympathy. She’s just the perfect victim here, while Chloe is the lost cause who doesn’t deserve help.
This makes the writing come off as victim blamey.
Children respond to abuse differently, but those who act like Chloe are invalid and deserve to rot. They all have to be more like Zoe to deserve love.
No, children who act out are responsible for their downfall. Not the parents who raised or influenced them to be that way. Those adults get to wipe their hands off their filth and start anew with a pure angel who coped better than them. They are justified to hurt the Chloe’s of the world. This is all the child’s choice to be the way they are, after all.
This implication disgusts me.
It’s Chloe I end up wanting to defend rather than Zoe.
In conclusion:
This is why Zoe fails as a character for me.
I’ve made peace that I’ll never like Zoe no matter what the show does with her.  I don’t even like Chloe, but the utter disrespect done to the writing of her character from Season 4 onwards... It coincided with Zoe’s arrival and now I can’t separate her from that. I doubt it’s a coincidence. They’re making Chloe look bad to make Zoe look good.
As Chloe once said, everything Zoe owns is because of Chloe and I couldn’t agree more.
It’s not Zoe’s fault. As a person, I recognize she isn’t that bad. But standing next to Chloe, it’s pretty obvious she’s just a stand-in for the wayward bee heroine some fully grown man has this unreasonable hatred towards. Like geez, we get it. He hates her character. But he can’t control which character people likes or dislikes. He can’t stop people from liking Chloe, but he does his damnest anyway, even if it sabotages everything about Chloe and everyone that is tied to her. The end result is an incomprehensible mess.
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vennyvenadito · 1 year
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I am the only one who think the other Miraculous characters are just….boring or plain?
Is like, they don’t do that much in the series, if they do, is not really good or is just plain
Like
The classmates for example
They don’t do to much in the series, the only thing they do right now is just be Adrinette shippers and only that
It’s not that is just one of them been akumatized or just appear as superhero’s
Speaking of superhero’s
They are just so bland, forget about the fact is some of them have a cool suit, they’re just boring
Even in their debuts doesn’t feel any special, is only “look this character! Is gonna be a new superhero! Aren’t you exited!?” I would if they were more interesting, but guess what?, they’re not
When they appeared I was just like “oh right, those guys exist, for what?”
Look Juleka, it was cool when she transform and her suit is awesome (one of my favorites but the way), but after that, she doesn’t really do that much, she is just another “yes man” to Ladybug
The only thing they do is just follow Ladybug’s orders, they don’t make their own decisions on battle or opinions about the situation, they just…there
Unironically THE only heroe that I feel ALOT of emotions and did have more going on was not other then CHLOE!
How ironic isn’t?
The mean character, the one the creator hates so much, the one a lot of people say she didn’t deserve be a heroe….was the most interesting character of all of them
You know when the mean character end up being the most interesting of all the other characters than the ones that are “we” supposed to root for, says ALOT
You know you did something wrong right there
And how funny how the only heroe I did care about is replaced with another character who like the others, she doesn’t really matter
I mean, c’mon, I need more than that
The other thing I hate about the characters is that fact, or they are only “good good” or “bad bad”
All of them are sickly nice or just pure evil
Like, morally grey people doesn’t exist in this series or what!?
I need a Neutral character please
If there’s one, please tell me! The only one a can think right now is probably Nathalie
I mean, Emilie could be perfect, she not been a perfect sweet angel but not really that bad
But nope! She is just another good sweetheart who did nothing wrong
The kwamis could be perfect for that too, like not evil or good, they’re neutrals creatures doin whatever their wilders do
But no, they just so sickly nice or just acting like babies…..um….how old are they again?
The only kwamis a I like and care about are Pollen, Trixx, Plagg, Nooroo, Duusuu, Wazzy and Sass
And kinda Tikki but like the others, she is just “Your the best, I love you!” “OMG new holder! 0w0”
Also, can the adults characters have more brain cells please! Why all of them are so freaking idiots!? Dang, that would explain the kids behavior in this show
What is wrong with the parents in this show!?
Like, Gabriel I can excuse him to been terrible, because he is the bad gay-I mean bad guy anyway, if is this his job? well, he does a good one (me no trying to ignore whatever happens in the leaks)
But like, Marinette parents are just those types of parents who let their kids whatever they want, sure, they’re not terrible people but they’re not perfect, but the series paint them as “The perfects parents”
Andre could be a perfect example of a father who fails to their kid but tries to better but doesn’t know how
But nooo, he throw his biological daughter like trash to her abusive mother and replace her with another kid?
What lesson is this?? Throw your kid like trash if they don’t behave like you want and blame them for that when you were the one who raise them!?
Fuck Andre, I hated you before and I despide you now, I hope you paid for this and get karma after that!
Ugh
Ok thinks that’s all
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gryficowa · 7 months
Text
I get annoyed by people still insisting that Chloe is evil while ignoring Andre, Gabriel and Sabrina's redemption arc
But remember, Chloe is evil because Marinette is traumatized (Which is funny for the person who was the scapegoat and I feel like Thomas is throwing mud at me)
I have the impression that people keep forgetting that Chloe is like this because her wise father didn't think to sign her up for therapy, because why? It's better to buy her everything and destroy her, and finally throw her out and replace with a better model
But no, instead of broaching Andre's guilt, they made him the daughter and wife victim (Alador Blight would facepalm if he saw this)
If you get the context of why Chloe is like this and who made her do it, it's obvious you're going to feel disappointed with this show
But remember, instead of suffering the consequences for how you raised a child, throw it away and replace it with the one you haven't destroyed yet
Andre and his redemption arc is what I described, I already mentioned Sabrina and Gabriel, the whole fandom talks about it, but Andre pissed me off the most because I've been watching this show since the first season, I quit it after spoiling Chloe's arc, happened episodes from the fourth season, but I did not watch them with such interest, because this series has become an exemplary day
Yes, you heard right, I used to like this series, but after this arc, Chloe started to smell like all those productions that also pissed me off as a kid because of similar and even the same themes
Chloe in the first season was indifferent to me, the typical mean girl who teased me as a kid and everyone had to follow her rules or they wouldn't have a life, which is something that quite a lot of people have come across, nothing unusual
Two years of waiting for the second season, anyone else remembers those times when the first season ended in such an emotional moment, because this show still had some level of writing?
Then season 2 came along and things started to change, I started to care about the mean girl who was like the one who teased me (A bit like Amity Blight), yes I started to care about the mean girl who was indifferent to me all these years and that there was something unusual, but also unusual, I followed her development and believed that, that she was close to being a better person (I didn't want her to be good, but being a better person is always a success) and then I got punched in the face because Thomas is like a baby and he was sulking
I've mentioned many times that I hate wasted potential and Chloe is that, so that's how I go about it
The show could have had an interesting lesson and broken the status quo, but we all know how it really was and it was overwhelming because what was it for? I feel like my attention and time was used for no reason, I feel a bit like after SVFOE and the final, disappointment and the feeling that it wasn't worth getting involved in because I just got a bad taste
I didn't expect Chloe to become a Saint Mary, I was hoping that she would start making progress to become a better person, even making mistakes where she would need time to understand everything that happened because people need time to heal. to come to and understand something, it's normal
Apparently, this is too much for Thomas and the anti-Chloe people to understand
Is it really so weird for people that as a former scapegoat who was bullied by people like Chloe and Sabrina, I still wish Chloe would get the redemption arc and she could slowly learn to become a better person in the end, not perfect, because I don't want perfect, and Chloe's meanness could be used for good purposes many times over
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odnlb writing process/workshop
this is mainly for my own reference. however, if this post ends up helping you with yours, then even better! 😊
most of you know, i wrote this fic as a practice for using save the cat (aka snyder) structure, and so now that it's complete i have the outline to come back to in a way that i understand and can use in future wips! did i deviate from this structure? yes. a lot. did i still follow all the beats though? i think so! check out how i formatted my outline!
my starting point: marinette 🐞
want: revenge against monarque
need: replace hate with love
this gave me a very clear picture of the emotional journey she would undergo. once i figured out her emotional need and decided what she would do to fulfill that need, i was able to pretty much plot out the entire fic. we needed a hero (in her case, an anti-hero) we could follow through an entire 45 chapter fic, and odnlb marinette gave us a reason to care about her and root for her right off the bat!
here's what save the cat's 15-beat structure looks like at a glance:
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(isn't it just beautiful? 😍)
for odnlb, i combined this structure with the 3-act, 9-block, 27-chapter method:
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lol so i did not exactly stick to this, as was my plan (my huge cast of characters wanted more from me.) however, i did stick with the proper beats...it just ended up expanding into 5 acts.
this is how my outline ended up looking (orange = save the cat, purple = 3 act 9 block 27 chapters):
act 1 - ladybug meets the villains
block 1
opening image - marinette leaves a rose at chat noir's statue. her eyes are dead (like him)
introductions/setup - 6 years later, marinette works for chloe. adrien still models for gabriel & is estranged from her and his old friends
theme stated - alya says, "you're getting better." (marinette has not been focused on hatred, but her personal growth)
catalyst/ inciting incident - bunnyx steals the rabbit miraculous & draws out the villain team
debate/ immediate reaction / fallout - villain team decides to abandon plan to use rabbit miraculous & get ladybug's miraculous instead. marinette decides to get cat walker's miraculous & kill monarque with it.
block 2
actions - ladybug interrogates adrien agreste bc he is close to lila, chloe, and felix (primary suspects). he doesn't give her any information, but reassures her he is on her side.
consequences - volpina attacks ladybug, villain team overpower her
block 3
pressure - ladybug is outnumbered, cannot stand against all the holders & their power-ups. villain side: ladybug is onto them. ladybug needs an ally & turns to kagami (also close to felix), but kagami turns ladybug down (but why?).
pinch/plot twist - cat walker contacts ladybug: tells her monarque is going to resume akuma attacks unless lb gives her miraculous
break into act 2 - monarque attempts to akumatize ladybug, but cat walker saves her. realizes villains' motivations are split.
act 2 - rise of monarque
block 4
new world - luka and zoe come to town. adrien is in trouble but felix stands by him. su han abandons marinette; he cannot teach her bc she has too much hatred.
fun and games/ b story/ies - felix and adrien switch so adrien can meet his friends for drinks. chloe sneaks snake miraculous back to luka. felix and lila threaten each other. felix likes kagami.
bad guys close in - monarque akumatizes nino to punish adrien. marinette finds out cat walker is a sentimonster
juxtaposition/ old vs new - luka/aspik shows up & joins marinette's side (she's not alone anymore). adrien realizes he has to be alone bc of what happened to nino. kagami confronts felix and gets the dragon miraculous (war begins)
act 3 - adrien identity reveal
block 5
build-up - luka and marinette plot to find the sentimonster. luka confronts adrien indirectly, suspects monarque is gabriel. marinette sleuths on felix (suspected peacock holder) only to discover adrien is a sentimonster/cat walker. kagami finds ladybug & offers to spy on felix & the villain team for her. monarque akumatizes zoe to punish chloe. ryuko gets her felix's amok in the fight, but gets it back when ladybug uses it against him. to stop ladybug harming argos & ryuko, luka reveals chat noir is still alive.
midpoint - montparnasse scene: ladybug confronts cat walker, he admits the truth. stand off with monarque until aspik & mellona rescue ladybug.
reversal - marinette is no longer hate driven, but driven by love to save adrien
act 4 - angrybug reversal
block 6
reaction - due to big emotional distress, ladybug goes into the avatar state (foreshadowing 👀). luka and chloe calm her down. feligami get together. adrien pleads to his father not to harm ladybug.
action/trials (raise the stakes) - the more adrien breaks his amok, the more he breaks his miraculous. marinette is set up to "spy" on adrien for the villain team. villain team plot to corner ladybug at dj wifi wedding.
dedication - adrinette kiss scene. adrien promsies himself he will harm himself before he lets harm come to ladybug. marinette promises no more harm will come to him.
block 7
calm before the storm - lila flashback: she killed nathalie and has been akumatized/transformed for 6 years. balcony scene: marinette tries to keep adrien close to no avail.
pinch/plot twist - volpina and monarque attack chloe, luka, and zoe. vesperia and carapace get their miraculous back. ladybug tries to heal cat walker & free him with her power, but his miraculous is too broken. she can only save him by getting his amok.
everything goes wrong/ dark night of the soul/ all is lost - lila & felix flashback: lila is monarque reveal. ladybug confronts gabriel agreste & tries to kill him, but can't (bc she is no longer full of hate). realizes monarque is lila. monarque takes felix, but kagami takes the other miraculous back to ladybug.
act 5 - fall of monarque
block 8 - finale
power within - team assemble. chloe uses mouse miraculous to activate other holders. lila finds marinette's identity.
action - monarque attacks. luka sacrifices himself to get the upper hand. alya gets the fox miraculous off lila, all her illusions drop. lila akumatizes timetagger, bunnyx shows up to get him. team fights argos and his sentimonster, red moon, to the death. chloe incapacitates argos.
converge - monarque takes the senti-twins and runs. remainder of the team follow her to agreste mansion.
block 9
final confrontation/final battle - monarque tries to make felix fix her miraculous. ladybug and team show up. monarque morphs into monster and attacks. gabriel sacrifices himself to save lb, but monarque still gets the upper hand. chat noir cataclysms monarque with a broken miraculous.
climax - the broken cataclysm destroys the world, but carapace's shield protects remainder of team. with adrien gone, felix is free and emilie is awake. ladybug goes toe-to-toe with broken miraculous final form chat noir, but her power is too weak compared to his untethered destruction. then felix gives her the peacock miraculous and she uses it to create a new bond for adrien, tethering him to life with her love.
resolution/denouement - all of paris knows chat noir is alive! big parade for heroes. ladybug and chat noir do a william and kate kiss. alya shoos off su han. felix gives gabriel to chloe and decides to work for tsurugi tech so he can stay with kagami. zoe and luka decide to go back home for a bit then come to stay too. emilie wants to be close to felix and adrien, but she is def not the priority for them atm. marinette takes the butterfly miraculous back from emilie. adrinette go off on a honeymoon vacation. adrien practices his proposal on a beach.
final image - adrien and marinette playing in the water on a beach on la reunion. “camera” pans away from their silhouettes running around on the sand, back to their stuff on the beach. shows a ring box in adrien’s bag with plagg & tikki chilling.
if this helped you out, i'm so glad! it definitely helped me see how to organize a story. i think if i ever do a fic like odnlb again, i will definitely do this for it.
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rainbow18 · 1 year
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Miraculous’s problems with how they try to redeem characters.
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Nathalie Sancoeur/Mayura
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Nathalie has known about Gabriel being a terrorist since the beginning. She has aided him. She willingly allowed Gabriel to akumatize her. She has kept secrets from Adrien. She murdered Senti Ladybug.
Nathalie’s redeeming qualities is that She treats People a little better than how Gabriel treats them.
To try to redeem her, the writers first made her have problems in the hopes that she’d get audience sympathy. They made her get sick from using a broken miraculous and confirm that she’ll die if she isn’t healed. They made her have unrequited feelings for Gabriel and possibly Emilie. Then, They made Nathalie and Gabriel fight and have Tomoe replace her as Gabriel’s main partner in crime.
The problems here is that Nathalie’s “Redemption” isn’t much of a redemption and She gets a happy ending. (Unless something happens in the future seasons) Nathalie’s crimes are left undiscovered.
Nathalie has done and will continue to do little to make up for her villainous behavior.
Gabriel Agreste/Monarch
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Gabriel Agreste is literally the big bad. He’s a abusive parent, a terrorist, a brainwasher, kept secrets from Adrien and he’s made death threats. He just gets worse as the series goes on. I do wonder what exactly he would have done if he had succeeded in getting the Ladybug and Chat Noir’s miraculouses in the beginning because a lot of his lines imply that he fully intends to continue being a terrorist even if he gets Emilie back.
There is literally nothing redeemable about him other than the classic “Even Evil people have loved ones”.
Gabriel’s “Redemption” is how when he gets his wish, he sacrifices himself because he’s dying anyway to save Nathalie and possibly Nathalie.
In the new world, He has a almost 100 % approval rating because everyone except Marinette seems to have completely forgot about his bad behavior. Instead, They believe that He’s a Hero that had stopped Hawk Moth/Shadow Moth/Monarch.
The problems is After everything that he did, He doesn’t deserve to be remembered as a Hero. Especially when they believe he defeated himself. Marinette should at least tell Adrien what he did.
Felix Fathom/Argos
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Felix has been mean, showed signs of speciesism, stalked, kidnapped, impersonated Adrien, stole and more. Felix gave the majority of the miraculouses and One of the Rings that control Adrien to Gabriel, knowing that Gabriel’s a terrorist. There’s also how he harassed Marinette and wanted everyone except a select few to disappear. Felix also kept secrets from Adrien.
Just like with Gabriel, Felix’s only redeeming quality is the whole “Even Evil has loved ones” thing.
To try to redeem him, Felix was retconned into being a Senti Rights person. (although Adrien appears to be a exception) Felix began dating Kagami, who we all know would scold and beat him up if He continues causing trouble. Colt was said to have been abusive as a explanation/excuse for why Felix is crazy. (What happened to the shows message of “Trauma is a explanation, not a excuse”? )
In The Season 5 ending, Felix’s crimes are forgiven and/or forgotten and he gets to keep the Peacock Miraculous.
The problems here is that Felix and Kagami got together much too quickly. Felix should not be with a Character that’s Good unless He’s behaved himself and regrets his bad behavior for a while, which he hadn’t. Felix has literally stalked and kidnapped her in the same Episode they got together in. Felix at this point, only likes Kagami because she’s a senti and on Kagami’s end, She might be projecting her feelings for Adrien and possibly Marinette onto Felix.
Another problem is Felix expresses very little remorse for his bad behavior and does very little to make up for it.
Mayor Andre Bourgeois
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Andre has allowed Chloe to misbehave for years. Andre is a bad mayor.
To try to redeem him, The Writers first introduced Zoe and “reveal” that Andre never wanted to be a Mayor. Then, The Writers had Andre refuse to send Zoe away. Finally The Writers have Andre quit being Mayor, divorce Audrey while giving her full custody of Chloe and adopt Zoe while saying She’s his favorite.
Andre’s ending is basically having a Fresh Start but with Zoe as his daughter instead of Chloe.
The Problems here is that how Andre treats Chloe and Zoe isn’t right. Andre doesn’t take responsibility for how he raised Chloe. Instead, he decides that Chloe will stay with her abusive mother. Andre could’ve easily started giving Chloe more boundaries or send her somewhere that knows how to deal with people like her. Andre has no grounds to adopt Zoe. Zoe’s in her teens and What about Mr. Lee?
Sabrina Raincomprix/Miss Hound
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Sabrina and Chloe have been friends for years. Unlike Adrien, Sabrina never had a problem with Chloe’s bullying and has sometimes been shown to enjoy the bullying. Sabrina does Chloe’s homework for her. Sabrina has remained friends with Chloe even after Chloe willingly worked with Gabriel.
To try to redeem her, The writers sometimes show her as a Docile but Nice girl. As well as have Chloe treat her terribly to try to get her sympathy. Then, in Season 5 Sabrina becomes frustrated with Chloe and judging from some clips, Sabrina appears to help Marinette expose Chloe and Lila.
Sabrina’s ending is getting to keep the Dog Miraculous and her friendship with Chloe is over.
The problems here is Why on earth did Sabrina not mind Chloe’s bullying? Her father is literally a police officer, Surely He would raise his daughter to dislike rule breakers? Plus Just like Nathalie, Felix and Gabriel, She doesn’t deserve what she got.
In Total, in every single one of these, Their Redemptions are all “Too Little, Too Late” and in most of their cases, “Went Too Far” to deserve their endings.
The writers appear to mostly just write the story as they go along and they are really bad at writing proper endings and/or redemptions.
Plus Thomas Astruc hates Chloe and Felix which comes out in the show. In his debut, Felix was deliberately made to be as nasty as possible. Chloe’s father and best friend get officially redeemed in the narrative by cutting off ties with her. Chloe’s the only villain/antagonist without a good ending in Season 5.
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primal-slayer · 2 months
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Charmed drama Mega-Post
Mid 2000: Per Jason Priestley
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Shannen talks Charmed and the joy she gets from working with Holly/Alyssa:
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2001:
2.6.01 - Wanda at E!Online reports that there is definitely something a-brewin' regarding the rumors about Alyssa Milano leaving the show. A source close to the set has told her that there is some not-so-charming tension between Alyssa and her onscreen sibs. Apparently it's stemming from jealousy over better storylines and Shannen's more expensive wardrobe, which is full of Chloe and Versace and has created a few budget problems. Link
2.28.01 - E! Online's Wanda reports that things are getting really ugly on the set of "Charmed." Doherty acts like a primadonna all the time, demanding the best clothes and to be in the middle of all the publicity shots, and Milano is sick of it and threatening to leave. Meanwhile, Combs has managed to pretty much stay out of it.
5.10.01 - This week's Soap Opera Weekly interviews Executive Producer Brad Kern in an effort to confirm the rumors behind Alyssa's said departure from the series in her on-the-set battles with co-star Shannen Doherty. "Nothing I've been told from the people that I work for indicates whatsoever that anybody's leaving the show," Kern says of the rumor that Milano wants off and that her character will be killed. "Alyssa and Shannen are professionals. Are they best friends? No. Do they have to be? No. Do they work well together? Yeah. They're sisters in character only. They come in and do their job well. That's all that matters to us."
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TVGO: After all the rumors about why you leftCharmed— including backstage feuding with covenmateAlyssa Milano— would you like to take this chance to clarify things for the record? Doherty: You know, I don't really want to be given the opportunity to clear the record. I have absolutely nothing to say. Details magazine will be out in August — that's probably the most honest interview that you'll ever read with me. I picked one magazine to tell the true story in and... if somebody wants to read it, then great. My opinion is, it really doesn't matter. I moved on, they moved on and who cares? You know, everything gets so blown out of proportion by the press that after awhile, you just gotta bury your head in the sand and go, 'I'm done talkin' about it.' TVGO: Any parting advice for your replacement, Rose McGowan? Doherty: [grinning mischievously] No, I think Rose will do a fine job, actually. I think Rose can hold her own and she's very sexy and beautiful — and I think it's actually going to make for a very interesting show, to be honest with you. I wish them all the luck.
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 "I think my passion for my work was too overwhelming," says Doherty of the fur-fly that became the Charmed set. Doherty claims the issue was one colleague's work ethic. "I mean, what do we do?" she continues. "Say a few lines, sit in our trailers, and get paid a fortune. That's really rough. And yet there was a person there that bitched about her job, day in, day out." According to Doherty, a "mediator" was brought in to diffuse all the poisonous estrogen. To this diplomat she said, "Are you supposed to be my shrink? Because I've already got one." Exchanges like these apparently so riled Milano, Doherty says, that the comely newcomer announced that she would not return to the show if Doherty stayed on. Doherty insists that she was the more politic star; to settle things, she took the matter up with the serge suits at Paramount, threatening to quit unless "changes" were made, though she says she wanted Milano to stay. "I would never wish another actor out of a job," she adds. "I think it's terrible karma." (Milano's reps did not return phone calls.) Six months later, at the end of the season, came a frilly pink slip. Though Doherty claims that she actually wanted to leave the show, she remains bitter that she's yet to hear from Spelling and that no one sat down with her to explain what happened. "You know what?" she says. "The lack of appreciation he's showing for me as a human being and as an actor is overwhelming." (Spelling's office issued a terse "No comment.") Others believe Doherty has her charms. "I worked with her for three years," says Charmed witch No.3, Holly Marie Combs. "I don't think she's difficult at all."
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But trouble was undeniably brewing between Doherty and Milano by the time production started on the third season last summer. The fawning quotes to the press had stopped, as had the costars' time together away from the set. As Milano puts it, "I wasn't going to call [Shannen] on the weekend to go hand out." Rumors quickly swirled that Doherty was resentful of Milano's growing popularity, which had translated into several endorsement deals, including one with MCI. But those close to the situation claim it was more complicated than that. "There were no angels," Combs says. "We all had our bad days. We all [got] stressed out."
That's hardly surprising, says executive producer Kern. "People on a TV set work together 12 to 14 hours a day, five days a week. Rarely have I seen cast members stay, or even become, best friends." Adding to the friction, says Combs, was the stars' growing frustration with the show's direction. "We were in [a] rut, where we felt like we were doing the same episodes over and over again," she says. Doherty, in particular, "wanted to make the show bigger and better and stretch her boundaries," says Combs, who has been friends with the actress for eight years, and still speaks frequently with her. "I'd see her in the morning and she'd be like, 'OK, how are we going to fix this scene?' She was really dedicated and she didn't have a lot of patience for anyone [she felt] wasn't."
Whatever broke the spell, "we definitely didn't get along," admits Milano. "Shannen and I are very different people, and I think it's almost like a roommate. If you spend that much time with someone and there are differences anyway, you're not always going to get along.
Both Milano and Combs deny tabloid reports that Doherty would only speak to them when the cameras were rolling. But Milano acknowledges that she and her former costar could get downright witchy: "There were times when I'd come in and say 'Good morning, Shannen,' and she didn't say anything to me. And there wer times when she'd come in and say 'Good morning, Ayssa,' and I wouldn't say anything to her."
"The problems we had weren't things some big company mediator could fix," Combs adds quietly. "They needed to be fixed between us [by] going into [each other's] trailers and saying, 'All right, I don't like it when you do this.' Or 'I didn't like it when you said this.'"
That apparently never happened. Doherty has contended that Milano eventually got fed up and issued producers an ultimatum--either Doherty walked or she would--but Milano insists that isn't truel "I never even thought about doing that," she says. "I couldn't sleep knowing I backed out of something I'd committed to."
Doherty's eventual dismissal, then, came as a surprise. And the form Combs says it took--a phone call to Doherty's lawyer after the embattled actress had flown to Winnipeg, Canada, to start shooting Another Day, USA's upcoming Francis Ford Coppola TV-movie--still clearly angers her. "How do you go from directing the season finale to being [given] a pink slip over the phone, when [you're] in another country, at eight at night?" Combs says. "it was really a tacky way to go about it.
While no one's officially saying why doherty was ultimately cut loose, a series insider says, "It eventually became clear that [either Doherty or Milano] had to go." And Doherty may have been the safer choice, according to Stacey Lynn Koerner, an industry analyst with Initiative Media: "Alyssa is just as popular, if no more so, than Shannen. And when Shannen left 90210, the series did just fine."
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While answering questions at the TCA press gathering in Los Angeles, a number of WB's own addressed what happened this last year on CHARMED regarding Shannen Doherty's exit. The network's Jordan Levin spoke of the matter, saying, "We knew last year that there were some decisions that probably had to be made in the best interest of Aaron Spelling and his company, our company and Shannen. And everybody came to the decision that they felt was mutually beneficial for all parties involved." When asked if the season finale was geared crafted in order to set up the entrance of a replacement for Doherty, Levin says, "We had an idea that we wanted to give ourselves some flexibility." More specifically regarding the addition of Rose McGowan to the cast, Levin adds, "There's a history within the mythology that there could be another sister because of the Lighter. We're still sort of hammering that out, and we haven't heard the full pitch yet and how that's going to work. But we're looking to bring in someone who could provide some conflict within the group and someone who could bring a younger audience into the show. We feel like Rose does that for us."   
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”I think it’s hard when you put…[long pause]…two very different people together. I’m very laid-back and passive. I have my Buddha,” Milano says, gesturing to a small shrine at the back of her trailer. ”I come in here and meditate. [Shannen’s] got a lot of energy, she’s very headstrong, she wants to get the job done…. I think it’s unfortunate that she left, and that she needed to bad-mouth everyone involved and the audience,” continues Milano, alluding to the former 90210 star’s recent dismissal of Charmed as ”a show for 12-year-olds.” (Doherty declined to comment for this story.) ”She sounds really angry. I just hope I didn’t contribute to that anger.”Shannen’s not the only one who’s miffed. ”It was done very poorly, in my opinion,” says Holly Marie Combs (Piper) of the producers’ postseason decision to allow Doherty to leave the coven. ”We should have had an opportunity to have her character, Prue, make a graceful exit and have our story writers properly plan for that.” Instead, writers were compelled to turn last season’s standard-issue cliff-hanger — Prue and Piper get thrown through a wall by a cranky demon — into a makeshift tragic send-off. ”Now,” adds Combs, ”we’re scrambling to explain why I live and she doesn’t.”
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That stuff's hard to wash out. You're even more famous for those MCI commercials. Oh, yeah. Little kids only know me from those spots. They don't know from Who's the Boss? and aren't allowed to watch Charmed. It's a great night job, especially if Charmed doesn't last. Speaking of which... Shannen Doherty? You know, if you remember the way Shannen left Beverly Hills, 90210, it's almost exactly the way it happened on Charmed. She left for personal reasons, then it started coming out that she didn;t get along with the other cast members. It seemed she was so angry and upset over leaving another hit show that she had to lash out at me. Suddenly it's my fault. I think she did the right thing by leaving, but once she left she attacked many people—not only me, our audience, too, and almost everyone on the show. She lost credibility. She was like a bad roommate. There was a lot of tension on the set. I have a fear of confrontation, and she can be aggressive, so I was afraid of her. Shannen doesn't hate you—she hates herself. I haven't been able to figure it out, and I might die not knowing. And that's OK. OK. You and Shannen Doherty in a celebrity death match: Who wins? Sarah Michelle Gellar. 2021:
While Milano said she's still so very proud of Charmed, she didn't always have the easiest time on set, especially when it came to her co-star, Beverly Hills, 90210 alum Shannen Doherty. After years of tension between the two during the show's eight seasons, Milano said she and Doherty are now "cordial." "I would say we are cordial," she shared. "You know, I could take responsibility for a lot of our tension that we had. I think a lot of our struggle came from feeling that I was in competition rather than it being that sisterhood that the show was so much about. And I have some guilt about my part in that." While the 48-year-old actress admitted that she still has some guilt for her part in their feud, their decades-old spat didn't stop her from reaching out to Doherty when she was first diagnosed with breast cancer in 2015. 2022/2023: Shannen speaks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHisM0QLPEw&t=85s&ab_channel=Let%27sBeClearwithShannenDohertyPods
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So it was interesting that when I had a problem after this all transpired and I wanted to discuss leaving the show and all my reasons why they put me in a room with Jonathan Levin, which I don't know that I had seen since we went to network, and you had told me about your background with him, which is varied and interesting, and he obviously has a very fond spot, shall we say, for you, And I don't know why they chose him to do this meeting, but I can tell you that during the meeting where I said this is not the show I signed on to do, I hear that you're looking for other people. And it's not about the list of names. It's about this was not a show that I wanted to do without Shannon. She didn't want to do it without me. Therefore I don't want to do it without her, and that should be fairly clear. And he hadars in his eyes already because he could see I was getting upset. As you can hear me getting upset, And I said, why would you hire her again just to fire her? And he said, we didn't mean to, And he said, but we've been backed into this corner. He said, you know, we're basically in a position where it's one or the other. We were told that it's her me and Alyssa has threatened to sue us for a hostile workplace environment, which because she went to the therapist or the mediator or the corporate mediator, whatever the heck his title is, she built a case for herself where she was documenting every time she felt uncomfortable on set and for whatever reason, whereas you and I refused to speak to him. So that's where the deck was stacked There was no either even like harsh words exchanged. It was all behind the scenes, it was all in the trailer. It was nothing that anybody or any of our guest stars ever noticed or noted. And you know, there's not a director that would not work with you. Again, there's not any one of our crew members that did not have a great time working with you. So by today's standards, it wouldn't fucking fly, right, And I don't think being laid as a teenager on a set called nine O two one zero would fly for being fired either. Like it's just it's just doesn't make any sense anymore. There are people that actually behave badly and get away with it, and there are men that you know, abuse people, throw things, screaming fits and get away with it. Alyssa/Holly Speak:
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Guest stars speak throughout the years:
Michael Bailey Smith aka Belthazor/Shax/Grimlock I did 14 episodes on “Charmed” and had a great time. Whenever I showed up to the set as Belthazor, Alyssa Milano would always give me a kiss on the cheek and say, “You’re not scary.” Holly was really nice too, really down to earth. And I know the rumors about Shannen Doherty, but for me, she was always nice and very professional. I would always see her doing extra work off the set with the stunt people just to make sure her fight scenes looked good. I remember one time when we were preparing for a scene, she got a box of roses from someone. When she opened them, they were dead roses. People can be so cruel. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157836541399125&set=a.404883944124&type=3&theater
Brian Krause (leo)“ I can just tell you that she was the hardest working person on the set. Yes, she could be terse and abrupt, but she wasn’t always wrong, I’ll tell you that.”“She had everybody’s back, she was part of the family, she was the family. And when she left, we all wondered how the show was gonna last, and it’s honestly a miracle that we did and kudos to Holly and Alyssa and Rose [McGowan] that we did, they kept it together. But I have nothing but love for Shannen Doherty.”“Most of those comments come from guys, men in power with money who don’t like to be told what to do by a woman, especially a strong opinionated woman,” he said, adding: “She wasn’t always right, but she stood her ground.”https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/brian-krause-interview/
James L Conway (producer)"Shannen was nice to almost everyday, she had script problems, always nice to the cast, she was the HEART AND SOUL OF CHARMED" That really says it all doesn't it? She viewed Charmed as her baby.Source: Charmed blu ray special feature
Christine Rose (Claire)"It was all with Shannen, and I thought she was absolutely darling. I had worked with her years before on Life Goes on. That was about a boy with a Down’s syndrome, and I was guest-starring as the boy’s teacher. Shannen was on that episode, too, and I was setting them up to be married, for what that might be like. I was new to L.A. then because I’d mostly been on the stage, and I was relatively new to being on camera. And I remember thinking, «This girl is a pro”. So I was aware of how good Shannen was, and she was very nice when I did Charmed. I enjoyed working with her, Holly Marie Combs, I had played her biological mother on Picket Fences. We didn’t get to work together on Charmed, but it was fun just getting to see her again. Otherwise my experience was pretty straightforward.
Actually, one other thing I remember was being at a table and another guest star was having a hard time. In between takes Shannen said something very encouraging and nurturing to her, and I thought she was very nice. So those are my memories, as sparse as they are"Source Unknown via: https://thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/11658/guest-stars-working-shannen-doherty
TW King (andy) I think some of it is rumor, but a lot of it is based on truth because she was young when success hit her. The great thing about Shannen is that she is a total professional and is always prepared, and she expects everyone around her to be at the same level - and I like to think I am the same way, so I respect the way she is around the set. We get things done, things rapidly and according to the script, so I certainly can't complain.Source Unknown via: https://thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/11658/guest-stars-working-shannen-doherty
Scott Steiner (Wrestling W/Demons demon) Steiner is asked about appearing on the TV show "Charmed" while working in WCW. He said that while explaining to Shannen Doherty's stunt double that he would have to put his hand in her crotch to perform a press slam, Shannen came up to him and said that she would do that and when Steiner told her that he would have to put his hand in her crotch, Shannen told him that is why she asked. Steiner says that she was cool and gets a lot of bad press.https://www.rspwfaq.net/2014/05/rf-video-shoot-interview-with-scott.html
Armin Shimerman (The Wizard) "I hated the ladies on "Bewitched"...um...uh..."Charmed!" "Charmed!" And there's a reason they were cast as witches. I...of all the shows I've ever worked, that was by far the ugliest." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zl24cHSS-w (8:10)
Danielle Harris (Aviva) First AC guy was talking to me - Shannen kept walking by, she wasn't very nice to me anyway but she kept getting mad. Wasn't sure what was going on. Wasn't a fun experience. A lot of fighting between the girls. If I pick Shannen, Holly would be mean. If I picked Holly, Shannen would be mean. Alyssa kept telling me what to do as if I didn't know anything. The AC was using me to get back at Shannen. He had been her boyfriend for 1.5 years. Thats why I was getting stink eye.
Scout Compton (Thistle the fairy) I did 7 or 8 episodes and it was interesting. I wasnt on (when Rose was on NOTE: She was only on 1 episode with Shannen. The rest with Rose)The women were always fighting in the makeup trailer.
https://talkscarytome.podbean.com/e/talk-scary-to-me-e9/ (22:00)
Geoffrey Blake (Four horseman) Alyssa was very welcoming. Most of them were except one that wasnt so nice**. (Shannen was largely absent this episode)** https://podcasts.apple.com/be/podcast/geoffrey-blake-podcast-apocalypse-not-part-2/id1573860155?i=1000526963557
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Elisabeth Hernois ( Brooke in the season 3 episode "Magic Hour"):
The dynamic on set was “interesting,” she said, as she “hadn’t really ever witnessed anything like that on a set — where people really aren’t hiding not liking each other.”
“Definitely as a young person, I sensed the tension on the set,” Harnois, 44, said, noting that her overall experience was “actually really good” as she shouted out Alyssa Milano, who she said “was a sweetheart to me.”
“She really took me under her wing, and a lot of my stuff was with her too, so that was helpful,” she recalled.
Shannen Doherty and Holly Marie Combs, who made up the other ⅔ of the sister witches who led the show, “were nice to me but not as effusively kind as Alyssa was,” Harnois said.
“And they were always off in their own space and [Alyssa] would sit all the way on the other side of the set by herself," she continued. “There was a major divide on that set, even back then, and I don’t think that was that long into the show.” https://people.com/charmed-guest-star-recalls-major-divide-on-set-shannen-doherty-alyssa-milano-8604809
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