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doom-nerdo-666 · 11 months

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Doom x Halo thoughts

(Needed an excuse to post an image... this IS "official" art, right?)

Doom and Halo have some history "together", at least from the outside like people comparing them and all.

So MicroSoft owning Doom lead to people think of potential crossover and other things.

I feel like there's some stuff to think about, just because:

The fans (And some comparisons)

I'm sure everyone knows about older Doom fans insulting Halo fans for "picking the inferior game that ruined the genre".

But with how less popular Halo got over the years and the mainstream return of Doom, it seems things have changed where more likely the "older gamers" are those into Halo and the younger ones are those into modern Doom.

Doom fans also used to compare Master Chief to Doomguy, as if he was a copycat stealing someone else's throne when the 2 didn't have much in common besides "green space marine in revolutionary FPS series".

Let's see some basic differences at the time:

One has grey/white helmet, the other has green helmet.

One shows arms, the other doesn't.

One shows face (Even in the HUD), the other is faceless.

This is why 2016 was a bit special, because it somewhat broke those differences (And i guess the more advanced armor and an AI companion, no?).

But even Doom 2016 brought new unique elements to Doom to make it stand out, even if there's still arguements of how the series is comparable to Halo or other games.

So Eternal brought back the exposed arms and added a shoulder gun and arm blade but still kept the helmet green.

The existence of the Doomslayer can also be traced to outside factors and not just the comic book with "rip and tear" but even stuff like how people compared Doomguy to Chief, Death Battle, maybe some goofy webcomics or copypastas etc.

Doomslayer can be seen as a product of fanservice even if the comparisons to MC lead to a certain irony.

Some people also thought Halo Infinite was taking stuff from Doom Eternal like the grapple hook or even some character designs but it's clear that Halo still had energy swords first.

It's also worth mentioning that both Doomguy and Chief were treated as blank slates except MC was still a clear character who talked in the right moments (Though this again leads to differences between Bungie and 343) while Doomguy was "unfinished" enough to be carried by his fans (Hence "Doomguy").

Another thing is how both series have religious references but differently: Halo has its own lore/setting but has clever references to Christianity in it, whereas Doom came in the "Satanic Panic" era and was a goofy "heavy metal" premise (And how later games handled the setting also depends on how it affects this but still).

And if you recall the original Forerunner lore, even Eternal's lore for the Sentinel may have something to do with the idea of humanity's ascendents or something like that.

Either way, i'm sure some fans would prefer to see both series stand in their own, since Eternal didn't even explore some other parts of classic Doom's aesthetic.

Perhaps this is why i think not only Doomguy's helmet should remain white/grey but also that the Sentinel Crucible should have been an energy chainsaw at best instead of a sword.

Gameplay

Both franchises have their impacts in FPS games and in a way that makes fans see them as opposites.

Doom was the upgrade from Wolfenstein 3D that needed to happen to actually kick off the genre while Halo (And i suppose also Half-Life) led to a new version of the genre that mostly defined modern console gaming.

(Though it can also be seen as games copying popular titles when considering terms like "Doom clone" or "Halo killer")

With the FPS genre, we obviously know about later games and how they had their affects on it over time, while both Doom and Halo changed, whether it's to make them stand out or even fall under certain trends.

Despite Halo being somewhat responsible for FPS games after it, it actually suffered worse with the trends and copied the kind of games it inspired.

You can point out D3 having reloading, upgrade systems in later Doom's and a 2 weapon limit in D2016's multiplayer (Funny enough, this mode was done by the studio Certain Affinity, that worked on Halo and COD before) but the games still managed to stand out among other titles.

Even if people trace modern Doom to Painkiller but even then, the Painkiller or Serious Sam format wasn't as big as the "Halo killer" one.

This is also a result of MicroSoft wanting Halo to be their "Mario" even when Bungie wanted to move on, while 343 tries to be clever and to justify making new Halo games.

Bungie even used to have a line in the studio saying "we make games we want to play" and there's even stories of the original Halo's development where Bungie and MS were at fights over what was going to happen with the game.

While Doom was probably never meant to be a "franchise" (Specially with the existence of a new IP that is Quake and the wad/mod/source port scene) but titles like D64 still existed and D3 for better or worse was something else entirely (And D2016 basically existed as part of a ZeniMax contract and the cancelled D4 development but still turned out great).

"Within the genre" crossover

On one hand, it's neat that fighting game franchises from Capcom, SNK, Namco and some others mix up within their genre.

On another hand, you had situations where Mario and Sonic meet up at the Olympics because despite both being 2 titans in the landscape of platforming, they have a lot of gameplay differences that means it could be hard to mix them up.

Because i though it'd be fitting if Doom and Halo had a crossover in FPS format despite their differences (Even if you had to cherrypick specific elements).

Meanwhile, Quake Champions was the first time BJ, Doomguy and Ranger were in a game together but it also felt like QC wasn't aware of it (I mean, remember that Doomguy was announced through a tweet before they posted an actual video trailer).

And i know people will want something better than the two green soldiers simply showing up in Fortnite (Specially because the idea of these 2 interacting in particular is not intentional and besides, Fortnite's crossovers don't have the same feeling as something like certain fighting game crossovers or Smash).

I also think a crossover needs to portray a series in a way that feels respectable, like not just sticking to the latest entry in a series and getting creative with designs and so on.

Kinda like how Smash is notorious for its "Snake" being both Solid Snake and Big Boss.

Basically, think of something like MetaDoom as how Doom as a series could be portrayed.

Except Doom is a series that can (Or at least should) ignore lore while Halo always had a lore focus (That was eventually mismanaged).

A Doom mod called Halo: Doom Evolved attempts to merge both series and is a popular example.

Of course i'd use MetaDoom and Samsara as references but honestly, they're the best kind of fanservice.

(I think Halo also had its own "franchise mix up" mod being SPV3)

Story/lore

Perhaps a major difference between these 2 franchises is how they treated story/canon.

Doom's own story was always a mess and not taken seriously, with examples besides that one quote by John Carmack such as:

Lack of story and barely enough context.

Abstract levels and assets.

Contradicting information.

"Additional info" that is obscure and hard to look for.

Adaptations that deviate from the main setting such as the 2005 movie or older novels.

Different games might as well have different canons since D3 is clearly its own timeline.

The mere fact that concepts from the fanbase overlap with the series, be it a nickname like "Doomguy" or how anyone remembers an aspect of gameplay due to source ports.

Halo on the other hand always had a lore/universe, since a book even came before Combat Evolved and it's a series by the people that brought you Marathon.

Cutscenes, story segments, voice acting, lore... it was always there.

With this in mind, you'll understand why fans dislike 343's involvement on the series due to what they've done to the story and setting.

The most noticeable example being the Forerunners, since most of Bungie's games and material had clear hints of what they were going for.

But it's not even just retcons, there's always decisions that make no sense as if 343 is struggling to do something while trying to address fan responses.

343 Halo is also noticeably more story-heavy compared to Bungie.

And let's also not forget what they've done to Cortana (Which i believe is a case of someone looking at the concept of "rampancy" in the Marathon series and poorly copying it; Didn't Bungie themselves had ideas of making Cortana turn evil but they were dropped? Thought i heard that).

Modern Doom does focus on the idea of a universe with lore (Even if just for the sake of nerd appeal) but i also imagine that even the new id Software has second thoughts on some decisions.

It's why i think Doom works as a "blank canvas" where a certain game can simply do things differently just because.

But this "blank canvas" mentallity isn't the case with Halo, so how does one save its worldbuilding?

Well if that trainwreck of a TV show can deviate even further from Halo canon, anything should go including a return to glory... hopefully...

Still, it's clear Bungie intended to end Halo with 3 and 343 only kept the series going because it's essentially the Mario of the Xbox brand.

Art style/aesthetics differences

Both series went through visual changes as well.

Doom definitely "changed skin" more noticeably than Halo, but you'll find more Halo fans unhappy with visual changes than Doom fans.

Again, it's due to lore/story reasons since even the looks are key in the world building of Halo.

Bungie wanted to make Halo somewhat grounded while still sci-fi whereas 343 makes their designs way more detailed and "out of there", until Infinite tried to make it up and attempt to go back to a more familiar style.

There's even fanmade redesigns of 343 designs meant to make them more Bungie-like.

Doom's original art style was always messy and lead to fans have their own interpretations, even if i made a post trying to explain some aspects of it.

And most Doom games are different takes in the series, even if 2016/Eternal forms canon ties to the classic games.

You get the feeling that a Doom game after Eternal might as well play and look very differently but can still offer some stuff to enjoy and if you don't like it: The older games still have that modding legacy.

Meanwhile, it turns out that Kenneth Scott who worked on Quake 3 and Doom 3 (And apparently Hacx) also worked on Halo 4.

Then there's comments about which series is copying which one but i'm sure people will prefer that both stand out in their own hopefully.

If Doom and Halo start to have similarities, it might also be a certain revelation that modern games will have certain aesthetical trends and result in lots of comparisons.

Hell, the idea that companies could use AI art could even adhere to the fact that "sci-fi" and "fantasy" are just vague labels to companies and there's no such thing as more distinct styles or designs.

Samsara and mods

Speaking of FPS crossovers, Doom has its fair share of amazing unofficial ones like the "Smash of retro FPS" that is Samsara and even Quake 3's Generations Arena.

And then there's a franchise mix ups like MetaDoom.

Along with mods that add "original" stuff that extends the setting like Complex Doom and all those Realm667 adjacent projects.

But even Halo has stuff like SPV3 and Halo Legacies.

Sometimes, i feel like these projects could be good use of reference of "what the fans want" even if there's the danger of companies stealing from fans or going after fan projects.

Monopolies and the corporate side of things

There is reason to worry about MS owning more studios and companies.

I'm sure we all know about corporations controlling stuff people like and all.

At least Doom's source code is available and there's a lot fans can still do, but this doesn't apply to all Doom games.

MS had a history of originally buying Doom and then there's the history of the 95 Windows Doom port (And this can also tie to Direct X).

It'll also be strange seeing Xbox fanboys put Doom alongside Halo in their console war attitudes even when it contrasts the established subcultures set by older Doom fans (Not like Eternal didn't already have something like this).

Meanwhile, you also have the story of Bungie making games for Mac and Halo originally being a Mac game before MS bought Bungie and that may've lead to the Halo we know today.

Another thing is Doom's reputation of being a game with various ports in different machines (Officially and otherwise) while Halo is usually XBox and sometimes PC (Though there's the story of that cancelled Nintendo DS game i guess).

What else

How could i forget Marathon? Think of it as a middleground between Doom and Halo.

It's technically a "Doom clone" but it's also a predecessor to Halo.

Despite being a lore heavy series, it's also known for its limited presentation and abstraction.

I've already talked about what i think of the new announced Marathon game.

And the music?

Sure Doom has a lot of great music, (From Bobby, Hodges, Mick, Hulshult, Levy, TNT, Tweaker, even the 3DO port) but let's not forget: Halo had this and it rules:

youtube

Anyway, this post could've been a lot better but if a Youtuber ever makes a "let's talk about Doom and Halo" video, feel free to use this as reference or "food for thought".

#doom #id software #halo #bungie software #crossover #opinions #microsoft #bethesda #343 studios #doomguy #doomslayer #master chief #Youtube #xbox

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lumi-klovstad-games · 7 months

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Hey, 343. We call "expanded universes" that for a reason.

It also hurt for those of us who actually LIKED Fireteam Osiris and saw potential in the characters. Halo 5 sets up a neat "Brothers in Arms" relationship between Chief and Locke like Chief had with Arbiter in 3, maybe even a little bit of Master & Apprentice, with Locke standing to learn a lot in the days and battles to come from the much older and more experienced Master Chief. But then the next game comes and... wait where is everyone? 343 wants me to buy more books?! A lot of fans already had to buy half a library's worth just to grock Halo 5, and here's 343 repeating that mistake again!

The Halo games really have just become a means by which 343 plugs the Halo novels. "There's a book that explains that" is the constant refrain I hear these days. No. I WANT THE GAMES TO EXPLAIN IT. The games are the only thing literally EVERY Halo fan buys. EXPLAIN IT IN THE GAMES.

I will give the audio logs in Infinite SOME credit for answering SOME questions I had, but mostly it was used to introduce irrelevant subplots that actually WOULD be better as a novel. Escharum doing his damnedest to keep the ragtag and ill-fitting family that are the Banished together with the disappearance of his protege Atriox, a warrior who was like a son to him, knowing full well he doesn't have Atriox's charisma and he can't maintain the cult of personality Atriox cultivated at the core of the Banished in the same way? Or a fireteam of Spartans, feeling lost and surviving without any real support, realizing that they'll likely die one way or another, deciding to risk it all on a single desperate all-or-nothing Hail Mary attempt at cutting the head off the snake, only to fail, with their only monument being their broken bodies, and their armor that Chief has to scavenge for gear with little if any knowledge of what happened to his comrades? These are plots TAILOR MADE for a spin-off novel. But instead a HUGE CHUNK of the total audio logs gets devoted to this kind of stuff, instead of explaining where Blue and Osiris are, if they survived, and setting up a reunion in a later story — you know, something actually relevant to Master Chief's story that connects with the plot players are already familiar with.

I get that 343 wants the Halo Universe to feel like this big connected thing while keeping the "mysterious" feel of the original trilogy, but for 343 that takes the form of locking players out of the loop: deny the players critical information necessary to understanding characters or the plot (even if the players can operate without that information) and then demand they cough up $8-15 a pop to gain access to that information (or just wait until Halopedia editors inevitably do). What they keep forgetting is that the original trilogy told players everything they needed to know as the game naturally progressed. The Bungie novels were interesting and sundry, but nothing they related was essential — not even The Fall of Reach (often considered the most important book in the expanded universe) was necessary to understand anything in the games proper. And then, when Bungie actually made a GAME about Reach, they made a point to showcase a separate cast of characters on a different part of the planet, playing a different role in the battle, with an entirely different team dynamic, all for the express purpose of keeping it so that the book wasn't essential to understanding what was going on. That's the secret that 343 just doesn't get: keep the books interesting, but keep them at arm's length — the GAME should tell the players everything they need to know.

More than game mechanics or graphics, if 343 can learn to tell stories in the games the way Bungie did, and learn to keep the books away from the games, then that alone will MASSIVELY improve Halo's appeal and bring back much of what was lost.

#video games #halo #halo infinite #343 industries #halo 5 #halo 4 #halo reach #the fall of reach #master chief #spartan locke #Bungie #expanded universe #blue team #fireteam osiris #the arbiter #microsoft game studios

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