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luna-rainbow · 2 hours

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To be honest I think the phase one movies were tonally diverse. Iron Man’s cynicism works because of who Tony Stark is, an irreverent and subversive superhero. Both Thor and CATFA took a sincere approach to their stories. Where they “failed” compared to IM was that CATFA was probably too much of a rosy-tinted take on WW2 (I know I felt a bit weirded out by it when I first watched it), while Thor was maybe let down by a protagonist-actor that failed to match the rest of the veteran cast. They didn’t fail because of their sincerity, but I feel like the MCU, especially after the success of Avengers, interpreted that as the reason. It’s certainly the reason attributed by a lot of dudebro sites too.

But the other reason why copying the Tony Stark model doesn’t work is — he’s meant to be the lonely genius. He’s the one who burns all the bridges and pushes away all human relationships, that’s why it doesn’t matter if he smart mouths his way through interactions. I don’t know if the scriptwriters for CATFA thought some petty conflicts would make Steve more relatable but the actors understood their assignment. They know Steve is an authentic guy who approaches relationships in a sincere manner. They know the circumstances of the war demand a level of sincerity for the soldiers to have mutual trust. And yeah I think Frodo and Sam is a good comparison, it’s two ordinary well-meaning young men (and their small party of friends) against the world, and all they have is trust and loyalty and open affection.

RE: People giving Bucky a hard time over his "I'm invisble, I'm turning into you.." line being "selfish" That whole scene is Bucky displaying behaviour consistent with depression or traumatic stress. He's drinking by himself in an isolated area, isolating himself from social situations by not sitting with the ohers - he doesn't initiate the convo with Steve and he's apparently smoking. Although a lot of people did that then we didn't see any sign of him smoking before? Not that I recall anyway. And I don't believe he was jealous of a woman paying attention to Steve instead of him or "taking" Steve from him. Bucky's a true friend (I'm not a shipper full stop): and true friends aren't possessive nor do they take issue with you spending time with others or flirting with the same person as them.

I think Bucky was simply testing himself. He wanted to see if he could still muster the confidence and charm to convince a lady to dance with him which he'd probably never had any problems doing before. Its the first time he initiates a conversation the entire scene.

When it didn't work was when he knew there was something wrong. I don't think it was just the super-soldier serum. It's interesting that after that Steve is really the only person he interacts/talks to having been very sociable and outgoing before. Some people have also noted that his tone of voice chances as well, he seems to speak less often, more softly and his tone is quieter. So maybe "I'm turning into you" is actually a kind of role-reversal. Bucky is now the quiet, less confident, introverted one and the one who has been victimized (and is about to be again by HYDRA). Kind of interesting as well that the serum now means Steve is taller than him too.

Poor Bucky. Cut him a break and give that man a hug. And a cookie. A cookie can't hurt.

Hey nonnie, I’m not sure who’s been giving Bucky a hard time over the “I’m invisible” speech but I’m glad I haven’t seen it XD

I had a meta a while ago about that particular line. It’s not a fixed headcanon by any means, I was just running with the flow of Bucky’s thoughts to see how he might have ended up in that moment.

And yeah, I agree, I think he was in a very vulnerable place at that time. Not just what he went through during imprisonment, but he’s also traumatised by what he’s seen so far in the war, and now someone who matters very much to him is in danger (Steve) and he can’t do anything about it. I’m basing my projections on what Sebastian had said about Bucky in the “let’s hear it for Captain America” scene – that no, he wasn’t jealous of Steve in that moment, he was just horrified he wouldn’t be able to protect him anymore. He’s torn between admiring Steve for the courage, and the very realistic fears of seeing Steve come to harm, but he also knows Steve too well to talk him out of it. So he’s not in the best headspace in that moment.

I do want to gently disagree in that jealousy in a friendship doesn’t make it less pure or less good, it’s simply a very human response to what is at its heart a fear of abandonment. Even if you logically understand that you need to let your friend have other relationships, you can still feel jealous if that eats up time you’d normally have with your friend, and apprehensive about what else you might lose. It’s what you do with those emotions that defines your morality. This is why a lot of fans say that Bucky has had a villain origin story but has come out the other end a hero – he’s gone through an arc of loss and fear and jealousy, but come out the other side still staunchly Steve’s friend, and that’s a heroic arc.

As always I think Sebastian did a fantastic job with Bucky. The change in Bucky pre-war and post-war is considerable.

His voice is lower and coarser, his mannerisms are much more “schooled” rather than boyish, it screams less bravado and more of a quiet assurance, and that frown never lifts from his brows. But yeah, a lot of that is battle-hardened professionalism, but I think a lot of that is also Sebastian factoring in Bucky’s mental health. And his eyes are on Steve a lot more even when they’re not conversing – shipping angle aside, Steve is his commanding officer, and my other thought is that…his eyes are always on Steve because the danger to Steve is much higher now, and he’s always made it his personal mission to make sure Steve’s going to be okay.

(I mean there’s also a lot we can say, or has been said, about that particular scene in terms of male writers writing female love interest badly, but that’s an entirely different topic)

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luna-rainbow · 4 hours

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Brief definitions:

Ad Hominem: Trying to undermine the opponent's arguments by using personal attacks rather than logical argument

False Dilemma: Presenting two alternative states as the only possibilities when more possibilities may exist

Bandwagon: Presuming that a proposition must be true because many believe it to be true/everyone else is doing or saying it

Incomplete Comparison: Comparing two things that aren't really related, in order to make something more appealing than it would be otherwise

Strawman: Misrepresenting an argument so that it becomes easier to attack

False Cause: Citing sequential events as evidence that the first event caused the second

Slippery Slope: Claiming that a single event will lead to a series of events that would lead to one major event, or that event A will lead to event B which must lead to event C and so on until event Z

False Analogy: Assuming that if two things or events have similarities in one or more respects, they are similar in other properties too

Guilt by Association: Connecting an opponent to a demonized group of people or to a bad person in order to discredit their argument

Hasty Generalization: Making a claim based on evidence that is too small to prove the claim

–

We ask your questions so you don’t have to! Submit your questions to have them posted anonymously as polls.

#tumblr polls #interesting poll

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luna-rainbow · 1 day

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Tumblr Top Ships Bracket - Round 1 Side 2

This poll is a celebration of fandom and fandom history; we're aware that there are certain issues with many of the listed pairings and sources, but they are a part of that history. Please do not take this as an endorsement, and refrain from harassment.

#bruh i did not know they gave sun wukong a ship #he’s so ace in the original story i stan #but we all know what we’re voting for 😌

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luna-rainbow · 1 day

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Yeah agreed.

Regardless of whether you see them as platonic or romantic, the fact Steve and Bucky friendship works is owed in a large part to CEvans and Seb genuinely wanting that relationship to click. Off the top of my head — Chris protesting that Steve would not be smiling and gloating when he finds Bucky tied down to the plinth, or Sebastian’s rich headcanons about Bucky’s protective role in Steve’s life, or Chris talking at length about Bucky being Steve’s home and connection to his roots. The two actors wanted these two men’s close bond to feel authentic and their acting choices reflected that.

And yeah agreed, @ashacrone and I were talking about how Steve’s story felt like there was a secondary incel-to-sex-magnet subplot buried in there, with a bestie-to-jealous-jock subplot for Bucky. It didn’t work because both actors looked at the plot and said “hold on, these two men were in one of the bloodiest wars in history, their individual stories are full of tragedy, and they only had each other the whole time; it’s much more believable for them to lean on each other than to have petty dick measuring contests”.

Poor Bucky. Cut him a break and give that man a hug. And a cookie. A cookie can't hurt.

Hey nonnie, I’m not sure who’s been giving Bucky a hard time over the “I’m invisible” speech but I’m glad I haven’t seen it XD

As always I think Sebastian did a fantastic job with Bucky. The change in Bucky pre-war and post-war is considerable.

(I mean there’s also a lot we can say, or has been said, about that particular scene in terms of male writers writing female love interest badly, but that’s an entirely different topic)

#stucky

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luna-rainbow · 2 days

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So I was thinking about the super-soldier serum and the corrupting influence in relation to Bucky. The narrative of TFaTWS (is that the right abbreviation?) wants us to think Steve was the only person who was never corrupted by the serum.

It really annoys me because to me, its obvious that Bucky was never corrupted either and I think a large reason for that was because he never asked for it anyway. I mean yeah its theoretically possible for unasked for power to go to someone's head and for them to abuse it, but everything that happened to Bucky happened because other people were exploiting and using him for their own ends

I kept wanting to kind of yell every time someone rubbed the fact Bucky was a super-soldier in his face, John Walker, Zemo, even Sam at times because they all acted like he loved it or always wanted it or something.

If he had a choice, I dunno I think he just wanted to survive the war and go back home to live a normal life. If anything the serum was like a curse instead of a blessing for him and not something he derived a net benefit from overall.

What do you think?

I'll have no hope of finding my old post on this but yeah, lots of Bucky fans were pretty annoyed with that particular part of the storyline. It wasn't just Zemo saying "there's never been another Steve Rogers", it started with Walker saying "super soldiers don't exactly have a great track record no offence" along with Zemo talking about the Flagsmashers being supremacists (??) It's one of many examples where what is spoken doesn't match how they act, because a "one world one people" slogan is certainly not about any form of supremacy.

Erskine: The serum amplifies what is inside. Good becomes great. Bad becomes worse.

There were two ways of interpreting this: physical, and metaphorical. If the serum enhances everything physical, including the brain and its emotional centers, then yeah maybe it makes someone who is reckless more impulsive, someone who is prone to anger more aggressive, someone who is brave more fearless. I personally don't like this explanation because it seems...rather eugenics or essentialist to me, and the creation of Steve Rogers as Captain America was supposed to be a middle finger to the eugenics movement driven by the Nazis in the 1930s. It's like saying that what determines your actions and your personality is already embedded into your biology, so when your biology is enhanced, so are the good and bad traits in your personality. It doesn't seem to allow scope for personal choice as the main driver of people's actions.

The second option is a more metaphorical interpretation. The serum enhances physical strength and power (and presumably attractiveness), which tends to move people up the social ladder (regardless of whether this is the intention). And it falls back on the same motto that drives Peter Parker -- with great power comes great responsibility. When power falls into the hands of someone unscrupulous, it will tend to bring out their worst traits because the extra strength lowers their inhibitions. When power falls into the hands of someone idealistic and kind, one hopes they will take it upon themselves to use it responsibly and use it for good deeds.

So I agree, I think at some level, the intention behind becoming a super soldier does matter, because we've seen it impact on how people behave after they get their extra strength. The five Siberian super soldiers - their goal was to become better fighters and better spies, and they did, but they were so vicious they couldn't be contained. The Flagsmashers - I mean I'm not happy with their overall consistency, but you could argue their immaturity added a sense of vengefulness and anger to their purpose, which pushed them slowly onto the path of killing indiscriminately.

And Bucky? We have no indication he wanted to be any part of it. He didn't show jealousy at Steve's new bod, for one thing, just a concerned, "Did it hurt?" When Walker said, "This must be so easy for you, with all that serum in your veins." It was hard not to dislike him, because Bucky didn't choose to have the serum, and his protectiveness (in this case of Sam) predates the serum.

It wasn't the serum that turned Bucky into the Winter Soldier, as the series seem to imply at turns, although it seems to recognise at other times that it was the mind-control (and it never for a second even showed the torture Bucky went through). And aside from the Winter Soldier era, Bucky really doesn't have anything else to answer for...so yeah, I agree, I've always had issue with the way the series seem to emphasise that Steve was the only "good" super soldier.

If Bucky was "bad" simply through the serum, they wouldn't have needed to torture him to turn him into the Winter Soldier.

#bucky barnes #asks #tfatws critical

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luna-rainbow · 2 days

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I feel like this is retreading that OTNF post we had last year 😂 Yeah, platonic male relationships are often held as the moral standard in popular culture. What did we say then? That male friendships are often portrayed (and perceived) as a partnership, of mutual respect, of two equals making a whole team. Meanwhile M/F relationships are often portrayed as one (usually the female but can be reversed in female-centred romcoms) being the prize that needs to be won, and the happy ending is by winning the prize rather than achieving a partnership.

As an aside on the idea “romance/sex taints the pure partnership”. It reminded me of a recent Little Women quote I saw on my dash. For a long time marriage was not about love, not for the woman. Due to the inability to own assets and (depending on class and time) inability to participate in the workforce, marriage was an economic investment. And maybe the opposite is true for men choosing a partner, it’s about the homemaking and yes, probably at some level, about the sex. Because of that transactional nature under a strict patriarchy, marriage was not seen as a “true partnership” that friendship was, because it was two people coming into a relationship wanting something material out of the other. While friendship seemed to come much more “naturally”, from two like-minded individuals being attracted by each other’s intellect or personality and the relationship is built on exchange and goodwill. So in a way, this might be a holdover from old patriarchal ideas (as well as more recent misogynist writing in fiction).

And I agree, real life friendships can be just as complex as anything with romance/sex involved. Betrayal, jealousy, breakups, ghosting, manipulation, they’re all real elements of any human relationship.

Poor Bucky. Cut him a break and give that man a hug. And a cookie. A cookie can't hurt.

Hey nonnie, I'm not sure who's been giving Bucky a hard time over the "I'm invisible" speech but I'm glad I haven't seen it XD

I had a meta a while ago about that particular line. It's not a fixed headcanon by any means, I was just running with the flow of Bucky's thoughts to see how he might have ended up in that moment.

And yeah, I agree, I think he was in a very vulnerable place at that time. Not just what he went through during imprisonment, but he's also traumatised by what he's seen so far in the war, and now someone who matters very much to him is in danger (Steve) and he can't do anything about it. I'm basing my projections on what Sebastian had said about Bucky in the "let's hear it for Captain America" scene -- that no, he wasn't jealous of Steve in that moment, he was just horrified he wouldn't be able to protect him anymore. He's torn between admiring Steve for the courage, and the very realistic fears of seeing Steve come to harm, but he also knows Steve too well to talk him out of it. So he's not in the best headspace in that moment.

I do want to gently disagree in that jealousy in a friendship doesn't make it less pure or less good, it's simply a very human response to what is at its heart a fear of abandonment. Even if you logically understand that you need to let your friend have other relationships, you can still feel jealous if that eats up time you'd normally have with your friend, and apprehensive about what else you might lose. It's what you do with those emotions that defines your morality. This is why a lot of fans say that Bucky has had a villain origin story but has come out the other end a hero -- he's gone through an arc of loss and fear and jealousy, but come out the other side still staunchly Steve's friend, and that's a heroic arc.

As always I think Sebastian did a fantastic job with Bucky. The change in Bucky pre-war and post-war is considerable.

His voice is lower and coarser, his mannerisms are much more "schooled" rather than boyish, it screams less bravado and more of a quiet assurance, and that frown never lifts from his brows. But yeah, a lot of that is battle-hardened professionalism, but I think a lot of that is also Sebastian factoring in Bucky's mental health. And his eyes are on Steve a lot more even when they're not conversing -- shipping angle aside, Steve is his commanding officer, and my other thought is that...his eyes are always on Steve because the danger to Steve is much higher now, and he's always made it his personal mission to make sure Steve's going to be okay.

(I mean there's also a lot we can say, or has been said, about that particular scene in terms of male writers writing female love interest badly, but that's an entirely different topic)

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luna-rainbow · 2 days

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I think we’re all playing in the mud here about canon, and that is fine — because that’s the nature of fandom, canon events are open to interpretation from multiple angles. A Steggy can read as much support for their ship as a Stucky as a Sambucky. I don’t think you’re on as much of a media analysis high horse as you think. You seem to be just as willing to apply genre conventions and assume certain off screen things happened to substantiate Peggy's skills and importance? While insisting realism be applied to Steve's story otherwise it’s all genre-mandated protagonist good luck?

A demonstration of “bravery and ingenuity” (using your words here) is as much earning it as a demonstration of training and experience. The latter comes with time, the former often doesn’t…to pull a real life example, a big part of many medical school interviews is discerning certain attitudes and a level of integrity suitable for physician roles. Did none of these people earn their place, then, because they haven’t been demonstrated training and experience? As for the rescue, Steve specifically went off to search for Bucky — we can say he “got lucky”, or maybe he’s sussed out the facility and questioned guards, then went down the tunnels because he suspected something important was being kept off-limits there, then saw Zola and knew his chamber would be important to search — again this is all hypothetical, but just as your idea that the gun Peggy picked randomly off the table would be loaded entirely with blanks by Howard just so…he can use it as a prop to scare people in a pinch, I guess? I mean, sure, any himbo could have found Bucky, but by that logic is anything in real life search and rescue competence, then? Or is it all getting lucky to be at the right place at the right time to hear someone needing help holler?

My issue with the shooting scene is more around the fact she did it in an enclosed room around other non-enhanced scientists literally minding their own business. That’s a vibranium shield and as far as we the audience know it’s untested and it’s Steve’s first time handling it. The bullets could have ricocheted anywhere and hit anyone — especially when you consider in CATWS Steve was using the shield to bounce the bullets directly back at people shooting at him. She has no way of knowing where the bullets could go and who she might injure. Steve had to lift that shield to cover himself. And Steve isn’t invincible, he’s just tougher than the average human. He bleeds and hurts when shot by bullets, as CATWS demonstrated, to the point he could barely stand up to finish his mission. I really don’t see that action as harmless.

I’m not really sure what you mean by the references to communist Russia — as someone who grew up in a communist dictatorship, I’m far too aware that communist powers are just as capable of being cruel authoritarian regimes as fascists, but I’m not sure why you think Steve can’t tell the difference or won’t condemn them even if his comics origin is left-leaning?

As I said, I think canon is open to many types of interpretations because it’s full of blanks, but I don’t think one interpretation is better than another in terms of “media literacy”, because both of ours have been based on multiple hypotheticals.

As an aside, and genuinely, I’m curious whether your “why can’t we get more platonic relationships in fiction” apply to Steve and Peggy, or does it only apply to Steve and Bucky?

Allow me to present the defense case for Peggy Carter.

I don't mean the PC who is in What If BTW. I don't know who she is, but she's not Peggy. I mean the original version from 2011-2014, especially from recently re-watching The First Avenger.

Peggy comes off as being very aloof, detached and rather condascending at times. I argue that's because she had to be. Its very hard for women in the armed forces even today- but back in the 1940s it would have been even more difficult for a woman to hold her own in a male dominated context like the army. She'd have had to worked many times harder to prove herself and to gain the respect which her male counterparts took for granted purely by virtue of their gender and rank. If she showed any kind of emotional vulnerability or it seemed like she didn't know what she was doing, the men would have pounced on it and taken it as "evidence" she was just a weak and feeble woman who didn't belong in "thier" world. Even then... we still see people being insubordinate and talking down to her. When she punched that soldier who was making lewd remarks (can't remember his name) I don't see her being a bully.I see a woman having to deal with the type of casual sexism she probably experienced on a daily basis. When men who were far below her in rank treated her with contempt or just saw her as a sex object. No way that soldier would *ever* have spoken to a senior ranking male like that...She was also dealing with it in a very masculine way. Like another soldier would. In regards to Steve: again I don't think Peggy is ever intentionally mean or cruel to him. Yes, she's sassy and snarky, but I think she had to learn to be like that to hold her own among men. Her interactions with him in the movie are actually quite positive overall: she smiles when he uses his ingenuity and jumps on a dummy grenade, she doesn't talk about how weak he was she views him as a proper soldier when a lot of others don't: including Colonel Phillips. Even after the Serum Philips just sees him as some glorified performer whereas she trusts his judgement: reluctantly at first but willingly afterwards.

For his own part, Steve never talks down to her or views her as inferior. He was probably one of first men who did that only after Howard Stark perhaps.

When she said that Bucky was probably dead: again I don't think she was being uncaring. That line came after just after saying the 107th had been through "more than most" upon seeing an ambulance bringing an injured soldier back from the front. It seems to me she didn't want to see *another* man die in what she had every reason to think was a suicide mission. I mean, its very likely she'd lost friends before, maybe even had family members killed. Besides of which, she ended up helping Steve go on that rescue mission by persauding Howard to drop him near the HYDRA facility on his plane. Then didn't apologize for her actions afterwards even though Colonel Philipps basically threatened to basically demote her.

Finally, that scene where she fires her gun at Steve's shield: again I don't see that as bullying. When he kissed that other woman (*who did it very deliberately in front of Peggy*) it was quite obviously an attempt to make her jealous. (Not on Steve's part, but the other woman). I think in that moment she felt betrayed, because she believed Steve was different to the other men she encountered. Men who just saw her as a conquest or an airhead. She thought he was behaving "just like the other soldiers"- i.e treating women as objects, and she had an emotional reaction. She was actually wrong, but that proves she's flawed. She's human after all!

So yeah, Peggy in The First Avenger is great. She's sassy and snarky but she does seem to genuinely care for Steve as well. I see them as having a lot in common: both people who struggle to be accepted by others but find their place eventually.

Okay, before I start, I want to say that I did like her mannerisms when I first saw CATFA, because I like no-nonsense female characters. However, movies!Peggy was not a fully formed character — just as movies!Bucky wasn’t. One was the token love interest, the other was the token best friend. Hence, there are specific traits embedded in Peggy’s characterisation, or rather her story roles, that are factors of a male author writing a female love interest for a genre about macho superhero men. Which in itself is a product of the misogynistic nature of 2010 MCU.

Firstly, she’s never actually had her rank or her professional role specified. She introduced herself as an “agent supervising all operations of this division”, but all she does is hover around Howard and Philips in their offices. She’s not on the battlefield with Steve (no matter how her own series tried to rewrite it). She’s not in the field acting as a spy/agent. We are told she’s important, because somehow as an agent she’s giving orders to military trainees — a weird role but we can give her that suspension of disbelief — but we are never shown her doing anything important to contribute to war efforts. More than this being Peggy is a useless person, it’s a symptom of the writer not knowing how to handle a female professional in WW2, to the point of calling her an agent but having her both being in the science division and giving military trainee orders but hanging around looking like a secretary. And why exactly could Philips threaten to demote her? Who does she even work for? He could demote her if she’s military but she’s not. So it’s never clear that those soldiers are her subordinates, because they’re not. She’s not in the chain of command! And so why should they respect someone who’s not in their chain of command telling them that she’s going to give orders? She does have to earn it.

You and I remember that kissing scene very differently. Firstly, Lorraine pulled him into a kiss, Steve didn’t kiss her. We need to get the instigator clear here. We can debate how much of a willing participant Steve was, because that scene can be read anywhere from “Steve was unsure at first but then started to enjoy it” to “Steve was in shock the whole time and his hands came up to push her away”. Secondly, there’s no suggestion that either Lorraine or Steve knew Peggy was within watching distance, so I don’t agree with the interpretation that anyone did it to make Peggy jealous. Thirdly, Peggy and Steve were not an item at that stage, so it’s rather presumptuous of her to “feel betrayed”. What did he betray? He said he was waiting for the right partner, he didn’t say the right partner was her. She’s the one who’s taken it upon herself to demand his faithfulness. He never indicated he was happy to enter into that social contract. Fourthly, you’ve acknowledged that her emotional response to another woman kissing Steve was “flawed”, but object to that violent retaliation being called “bullying”. So let’s call it for what it is: unprofessional, unethical, unromantic, and bloody unhinged.

I’m sorry, there is no possible justification for discharging a gun at a man (and specifically in this case a man who is not in a relationship with you) over a kiss in an enclosed space at work where other bystanders could get injured.

But you know what? That scene is another symptom of male writers not knowing how to write a strong female love interest. In 2010 everyone knew it would be bad form if a man hit a woman for being kissed by another man, but violent anger from a woman directed at a man? That was seen as cute and funny and sweet. And that view exists because of the infantilisation of women. Female anger is seen as “not that hurtful” and “not that important”, dismissed as a momentary “emotional outburst” because women are prone to emotional outbursts, it’s a womanly thing to suddenly lose grip on logic over a jilted love. Where in a man that emotional volatility and violence would be a major character flaw that would turn him into a villain, in a woman that’s…cute and harmless.

So you know, Peggy was at the same level of neglect that Bucky-with-two-birthdates was. She was not a character they cared enough about to even give her a proper professional role in the army. She’s there because the movie needed a love interest. She’s there to show how unwanted Steve was before the serum, and how desirable he became after the serum. She appears, every now and then, to remind the audience she exists, but never in a way that directly affects the plot. @amarriageoftrueminds has multiple excellent metas explaining why the story could have proceeded without Peggy being present. She’s a character we are continuously told is important, but the narrative gives her only counselling type dialogues, and while those conversations are placed at narratively important milestones, none of her suggestions make any sway on Steve’s original plans before he started talking to her, making her someone who has minimal impact on Steve’s arc and on the story as a whole.

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luna-rainbow · 3 days

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Hmm. I know the angry chihuahua characterisation of Steve is popular fanon but it’s one I don’t agree with. I think he’s always been careful to pick his battles, but he will stand up for injustice when it comes to a crunch point. The back alley fight was him telling a jeering guy to shut up because he noticed a woman — likely a war widow — crying behind him. He didn’t pick the fight, the fight was picked with him. Similarly when he leapt on a grenade, it’s not because he’s got a death wish, it’s because in that split second there wasn’t another alternative. I think the fact he has survived so long with all his illnesses and his sense of justice means that he’s a good judge of situational danger, and he’s not someone who puts other people at risk - and we see the same caution during CATWS. So while Bucky may have legitimate concerns about Steve’s relative inexperience, he’s also one of the best reads of Steve’s character. I don’t think Bucky would let Steve take charge of some of the best men he could gather if he didn’t trust Steve to do that. The argument between Steve and Bucky over Steve enlisting showed that Bucky was perfectly assertive in that relationship to call Steve’s BS when he sees it. I wouldn’t put it past him to corner Steve out of the leadership role if he didn’t trust Steve to keep his men alive.

When I talked about Chris and Sebastian worked on giving Steve and Bucky a strong relationship, I was referring to a platonic friendship. Both of them have at turns indicated they consider Steve and Bucky to be platonic, even if they’ve also suggested they’re happy for fans to interpret it other ways.

As someone who enjoys imagining Steve/Bucky both romantically and platonically, and as someone who’s too ace to ship on the regular (I can count like, 2 ships I’ve shipped seriously in my 20 years in various ship-heavy fandoms), may I present to you the wise words of olderthannetfic: media has enough of platonic male relationships. In fact, that is the default (and canon Steve-Bucky was aggressively no-homo after CATWS). Media as distributed by big production companies, are not oversaturated with gay romance, and is rather all about male friendships and bros before ho’s. Maybe something sociologically can be said about queer fans turning to strong platonic relationships and reading romance into them because of chronic under-representation, and because (there was a good thread on it about a year ago) scriptwriters are taught to use classic romantic tropes to build up buddy stories. I know it might seem facetious when we talk about Stucky having used multiple romantic tropes, but it’s actually true — the intention was to build a strong platonic relationship, but the tropes used are classic romcom tropes. I don’t think shippers are taking anything away from strong platonic relationships in media (nor are they capable of it), I just see fans engaging with characters in a way that they enjoy, as one of multiple ways to engage with a comfort media.

Trust me, I was at your stage of “shippers ick” a few years ago but now I’m just zen about it. A lot of people derive comfort from being in fandom, and some people do it through shipping and some people don’t. It’s like some people have headcanons or theories I don’t agree with or even find annoying, but if that’s the way people derive comfort from their blorbos, I’m happy for them.

Poor Bucky. Cut him a break and give that man a hug. And a cookie. A cookie can't hurt.

Hey nonnie, I'm not sure who's been giving Bucky a hard time over the "I'm invisible" speech but I'm glad I haven't seen it XD

I had a meta a while ago about that particular line. It's not a fixed headcanon by any means, I was just running with the flow of Bucky's thoughts to see how he might have ended up in that moment.

As always I think Sebastian did a fantastic job with Bucky. The change in Bucky pre-war and post-war is considerable.

(I mean there's also a lot we can say, or has been said, about that particular scene in terms of male writers writing female love interest badly, but that's an entirely different topic)

#steve rogers #stucky #fandom shenanigans

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luna-rainbow · 3 days

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I think perhaps the writers had intended for that “let’s hear it for Cap” scene to be showing Bucky jealous of Steve, for suddenly becoming bigger/better and the center of everyone’s attention, a place where he was supposed to be. I also think that Sebastian took that scene and made it gay said, okay what would a guy, who is so protective of his childhood friend that he would spend the last day before he sails out and maybe never see his home again, forcing said friend to go on a double date in a bid to stop him from joining the war efforts, how would that guy react? And Sebastian decided no, he wasn’t jealous, he was plain horrified by the prospect of Steve being here and being in a fight he can’t protect Steve from. And I do believe he played it that way. (I do think Chris and Sebastian have contributed a lot to the depth of friendship between Steve and Bucky because it sounds like they both tweaked their depiction of the script in favour of Steve and Bucky having a real, substantial relationship) And I like that interpretation, because it goes with what we were saying in previous posts about Bucky having a villain origin story - he had every reason to be jealous of having his leadership position taken, but he chose his friendship with Steve over his own loss, and that itself is an amazing integrity of character.

So my headcanon is that it was Bucky who handpicked the Howlies. Because when Steve came back from recruiting the Howlies, Bucky said, “I told you, they’re all idiots.” In concert with the deleted scene you attached, I think it points to Bucky being the one who gathered the best team to work with Steve, because he’s the one who knows each of these men (including Steve) best.

And yeah, I love the idea that Steve and Bucky formed a tight team of leadership. To be fair, Steve from the comics is quite a strong leader and even MCU Steve showed reasonable strength as a strategist in later movies. We’re introduced to Bucky as outgoing and accomplished, and as someone who became sergeant quickly after his recruitment, so I can see him as someone who might have strong leadership skills although we’ve never seen it in the MCU. And sometimes you need two types of leaders, the one with the hope and vision, and then the one with the people management skills and planning skills to pull things off.

Poor Bucky. Cut him a break and give that man a hug. And a cookie. A cookie can't hurt.

Hey nonnie, I'm not sure who's been giving Bucky a hard time over the "I'm invisible" speech but I'm glad I haven't seen it XD

I had a meta a while ago about that particular line. It's not a fixed headcanon by any means, I was just running with the flow of Bucky's thoughts to see how he might have ended up in that moment.

As always I think Sebastian did a fantastic job with Bucky. The change in Bucky pre-war and post-war is considerable.

(I mean there's also a lot we can say, or has been said, about that particular scene in terms of male writers writing female love interest badly, but that's an entirely different topic)

#bucky barnes #steve rogers

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