agro-carnist

[agro-carnist]

My dad unfortunately did the trap-neuter-release thing a couple times (good news: he hasn't in a while) and we ended up with at least 4 cats through it: a mother + 2 of her 3 kittens after they were fostered by a friend & a year later, an already neutered but unchipped male that no one was looking for/claiming (we looked & we tried to find his owners for a while with no luck). Just some success stories I wanted to share!

I get why people do TNR but actually being a part of that process you see how stressful it is for those cats. I'm glad some kitties found a home through you though!

[agro-carnist]

so many people do not understand that 1) animals are not people, and 2) they aren't teaching their animals what they THINK they are teaching them.

dog group on the book of faces, someone is asking for advice on how to get their dog to come to them after the dog is done relieving itself outside. The dog doesn't like coming to them an they spend ten or twenty minutes or more catching the dog each time to bring it in. Which reminded me of one of many attempts to talk a person through trying to fix exactly this same behavior in *many* other dogs over the years...

Me: So, a quick question for you... does the dog not coming to you and you having to chase them down frustrate you?

Them: Of course!

Me: So what do you do when you finally either catch the dog or get them to come to you?

Them: I give the dog a correction!

Me: So. You get hands on your dog and then you immediately punish them for allowing you to get hands on them. And you wonder why your dog has developed the habit of not coming to you?

Them: No, that's not... I'm punishing them for not coming when I call!

Me: Which was.... fifteen minutes ago, or so, you said?

Them: Yes, when I first called them!

Me: Dogs brains literally cannot link an abstract thought like that. A thought and a consequence MUST happen within 2.4 seconds of one another, or the consequence becomes linked to the most recent behavior, thought, or activity. So, tell me... how is your dog supposed to understand that you punishing them is for the event fifteen minutes ago when you have made such a concerted, if unintentional, effort to teach them that them getting close enough for you to lay hands on them in the yard means an immediate punishment?

Them: But that's not what I *meant*!

Me: Doesn't matter what YOU meant... what THEY learned is that they come to you, and they get punished. Stop punishing your dog for the behavior that you want to see more of.

Stop anthropomorphizing your animals, folks. They don't think like us. Stop setting them - and yourself - up for failure.

[agro-carnist]

I was only there for a very short time unfortunately 😭 got in Friday night for a welcome party, had the wedding Saturday, and then had to skedaddle Sunday morning

But yeah I was surprised by the progressive atmosphere there. Like anywhere else in Kansas I'm in it's all trump flags and punisher skulls

I was in Kansas City over the weekend for a wedding and the reception venue had gender neutral multiple stall bathrooms and it was so nice how literally nobody complained or batted an eye at it. It was such a nice bathroom just in general too. Having stalls where the doors go all the way to the floor is very nice. And alleviated my gender dysphoria so much. I went presenting as pretty gender neutral and had a great time. My dysphoria has been so bad lately but had very little this weekend. Made me very happy. Nobody questioned anything telling them my chosen name or being referred to as he/him. Conservatives really make a big deal out of gender neutral bathrooms but this told me the vast majority of people don't care, yes even the cis women had no problem with going in when there were men in there too.

[agro-carnist]

I was in Kansas City over the weekend for a wedding and the reception venue had gender neutral multiple stall bathrooms and it was so nice how literally nobody complained or batted an eye at it. It was such a nice bathroom just in general too. Having stalls where the doors go all the way to the floor is very nice. And alleviated my gender dysphoria so much. I went presenting as pretty gender neutral and had a great time. My dysphoria has been so bad lately but had very little this weekend. Made me very happy. Nobody questioned anything telling them my chosen name or being referred to as he/him. Conservatives really make a big deal out of gender neutral bathrooms but this told me the vast majority of people don't care, yes even the cis women had no problem with going in when there were men in there too.

[agro-carnist]

the fact that "eco" and "ethical" are two separate concerns in the global north, and that "eco" is a much more popular concern, with many "eco" products being made in actual sweatshops, is a big part of why i am The Joker

[agro-carnist]

This being a sponsored ad I saw this morning makes me crave violence

[agro-carnist]

I remember seeing someone ask "you see a whole roasted pig, head on, feet everything. What do you do? Uh grab a plate right? That was not right apparently

Yeah that sounds delicious. People forget people actually do eat that and enjoy it.

I also like when people go "you don't see a whole raw carcass and get hungry!" And I go "SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!" I've done dissections/necropsies and gotten hungry xD

[agro-carnist]

I have gotten hungry seeing roadkill before

Ok now you're a freak xD

[agro-carnist]

i am legitimately the strawman of a carnist that vegans imagine. i get cravings if i dont eat meat for too long. i eat steaks with my hands because it makes me feel like a wolf digging into a fresh kill. i have imagined myself as an apex predator hunting down my fellow man and blorbos from my video games. i would totally eat human if presented with the opportunity to do so ethically.

or maybe im a completely different genre of freak idk

Nah I totally feel you on that

[agro-carnist]

Sucks when I meet new people and we're having a great time and then they bring up their dog and in my head I'm going "oh I hope it's not a doodle. These people seem like the type to have a doodle" and then they show me their dog and it's a goldendoodle 😂

[agro-carnist]

how would you feel if you were TNRed?

Dude I want to be TNRed SO BAD. Please please please please

[agro-carnist]

Are there some good books or websites to learn about fur animal genetics?

[agro-carnist]

When horses end up with severe leg/hip injuries, they are almost always put to sleep. The odds of recovering full mobility from such injuries are slim and the odds of reinjury are high, so even if the horse is perfectly healthy in all other aspects, it is generally recognized to be more humane to put them down than to keep them alive just to live the rest of their lives limping around a small paddock or stall. A life for a horse in which s/he cannot gallop, leap, explore and play is no life at all. Why not apply the same logic to cetaceans? A life for a cetacean in which they can’t dive hundreds of meters, make meaningful autonomous choices (“should I play with the rubber ball or the puzzle feeder today?” is not a meaningful choice; research has shown that autonomy is crucial for animal welfare), echolocate and experience the rich biodiversity of the ocean is no life. I really don’t understand why it’s so horrible to think it more humane to euthanize a confused and sick orca calf if there is no chance of rehab and release than to take her/him permanently into captivity. It’s not disparaging or hateful to cetacean trainers to say so—I know they care about animals—it’s simply a logical ethical stance. Instead of searching in vain for orca conservation organizations that aren’t “radically anti-captivity”, maybe pro-caps should look inwards and ask themselves why all the major orca organizations (Center for Whale Research, Orca Behavior Institute, OrcaLab, Wild Orca, Orca Conservancy, Far East Russia Orca Project, etc.) as well as some cetacean organizations (ex. Whale and Dolphin Conservation, Cetacean Society International) oppose captivity. Is it because all of these esteemed groups, which if you look them up are all staffed by credentialed scientists, have been duped by the “animal rights agenda”, or could it be because maybe, just maybe, they know what they’re talking about? If captive orcas are so different from wild ones that wild orca biologists have no credibility to speak about their welfare, then that’s a clear indictment of captivity already.

Hi. I'm sorry for not answering right away, I was still at my externship when I got your ask, and I wanted to be able to sit down and give you a proper answer. So unfortunately, I don't think what I say will satisfy you. I don't expect to change your mind, nor is that my goal here. I only want to explain why I believe the way I do, so that you or others reading this can at least understand that it's not a position I take lightly, nor do I think it's infallible.

(Long post below the cut):

To start off, as an (almost) veterinarian, there are absolutely plenty of circumstances where I find euthanasia to be the correct decision. Euthanasia is our final gift to our patients, a swift and painless death in the face of prolonged suffering or poor quality of life. A large dog with debilitating osteoarthritis. A cat with terminal lymphoma. A down cow. A raptor with an amputated leg. Or like you mentioned, a horse with a fractured hip. These animals would live in a constant state of pain that they don't understand, and death can rightly be considered a kindness to them.

But an otherwise healthy orca calf? I would consider that a false equivalence. I agree that life in the wild should be prioritized whenever possible, and that captive orcas lead very different lives than their wild counterparts. But if that orca cannot return to the wild (orphaned and unable to be reunited with its pod, habituated to humans, non-painful disability such as deafness), and there is a facility willing to take it on, I do not think euthanasia is an appropriate option. In human care, that calf can still swim, breach, and dive, even if not to the same depths as the ocean (it's also worth noting that these are all costly behavior energetically and are not performed for no reason). It can still socialize and form family bonds with an adopted pod of whales. It can still (theoretically) mate and rear calves. It can still engage its big brain in problem-solving through training and enrichment in the place of hunting. And as a bonus, it will never go hungry and has access to veterinary care if ill or injured.

This is not a wild life. This is not the same life they would've, or should've known. A pool, no matter how well-appointed, is not the ocean, and we should not claim they're comparable. But I don't think it's a fate worse than death. I truly don't. But if it is... if freedom really is worth more than life, then all captive whales need to be euthanized. Even in a sea pen setting, they will not be free. They will not choose their food, their companions, their enrichment, their comings and goings. Those choices will still be made on their behalf by caregivers, and they will still have pretty much the same levels of autonomy as in their tank habitat. They will still be captive. (While some people do advocate for this, I don't think it's a popular outlook. Even SOS Dolfijn, a historically anti-cap organization, recently announced plans to build an aqauarium as a permanent home for non-releasable cetaceans rather than continuing to euthanize them).

Speaking of autonomy, yes, it is very important. But I truly don't think the orcas are distressed by the lack of meaning in choosing between enrichment devices. I think that's why we disagree on this topic... we have different worldviews. We both see orcas as beautiful, intelligent creatures, but I do not see them as people. They are animals, and for all their complexity, I interpret their behavior the same way I do any other species... they are motivated by food, reproduction, and (since they're highly social) companionship. Because of that, I still think we can give them a good life in human care, which is why it frustrates me to see the zoo community throw up their hands and give up rather than trying to improve our current less-than-ideal setups (*shakes my fist at the Blue World project*).

Now, I don't think it's wrong to be emotional about animals. I most definitely am! And it's very clear to me you love orcas and care about their wellbeing deeply. I admire that about you, and I appreciate your passion.

On to the next point... in the cetacean world, I've found that there is an unfortunate divide between researchers and caregivers who work with cetaceans in human care and those who study them exclusively in the wild. And that schism far predates the Blackfish era. Most of those organizations you listed are indeed legitimate, and I fully support their vital work and encourage others to do the same. A few of them, though, share things like this:

I think you can understand why this hurts me. And it's a lie. I've now interned at three aquariums (two of them AZA-accredited) that house various species of cetacean, and it's impossible for me to reconcile what I know and have seen to be true and what Whale and Dolphin Conservation wants the public to believe: that these unbelievably loved, vivacious animals are drugged and tortured by their greedy captors. It's not true, and I do not appreciate WDC for spreading this creepy artwork around. Nor do I think that fighting captivity is a beneficial allocation of resources when there is an overwhelming number of genuine threats to the survival of wild cetaceans.

Anyway, back to the scientists. Personally, I don't consider researchers who work exclusively with wild orcas to be either superior or inferior to those who work with captive whales. And sometimes I wonder how much of their position is a self-fulfilling prophecy: if someone opposes captivity on moral grounds, they won't work with captive whales, so they'll never get to know what their lives and care are like beyond maybe a single tour of the park or memories of how things were done in the 1960s (like Dr. Spong, who worked with some of the very first captive orcas at the Vancouver Aquarium).

I also don't think it diminishes the expertise of wildlife biologists to say that they are not experts on husbandry, training, or medical care... those are very different fields, and ideally, they should all inform each other. And of course, there are folks who work with both wild and captive whales. One of the reasons I linked SR3 in my previous post is they have staff with backgrounds in both managed care and research of free-ranging populations (I actually have no idea what the organization's official stance on captivity is, it's not something they address).

Maybe I'm wrong. I try my best to keep an open mind, but I know I'm also swayed by my own preconceptions and experiences. When I started this blog in December 2020, I was a first year vet student with minimal actual experience outside of domestic animals and some herps, and had only recently adopted the pro-captivity outlook. Now, I'm much more deeply involved in the zoo and aquarium world. These are people I know and respect, people who have written me letters of recommendation and comment on my Facebook posts, people I've had dinner with and showed up with after hours to care for a sick animal. And I recognize that biases me. The zoo world is often resistant to change, especially folks who have been in the industry for many years. And that doesn't do anyone, especially the animals, any good. I don't want to get stuck in an echo chamber, so I make it a point to read anti-captivity literature, even when it upsets me. If there is anything I can do to improve their lives, I want to learn about it, regardless of the source.

I try to adapt to new information. For example, in the past few months alone, I've become a lot more favorable toward the idea of sea pen habitats. My concerns about "sanctuaries" are more logisitical* and philosophical** rather than the idea that artifical habitats are inherently superior to pen habitats (they're not), especially when plenty of traditional facilites already make great use of ocean pens or enclosed lagoons. There are pros and cons to both, and a lot of it depends on the needs of the individual animals.

*funding; maintenance; lack of land-based backup pools and fully-equipped medical facilities; introducing immunologically naive animals to pollutants and infectious agents; disruptions to native wildlife; staffing activists and wildlife biologists rather than those with relevant husbandry experience

**villainizing aquariums; promoting the project as a "release to freedom" to the public when it's really another form of captivity; claiming the animals' lives will be "natural" when they will still require training, artificial enrichment, contraceptives, and social management if done correctly; downplaying or completely denying the very real risks of such a transition and insisting the animals will automatically be better off when Little White and Little Grey have proved that's not the case

If you made it to the bottom, thanks for reading. I wish all the best for you, and I mean that genuinely ❤️ even if we disagree, I hope you can appreciate our shared love for these animals and a desire for their wellbeing. Best of luck in all your endeavors!

[agro-carnist]

Stop calling stray and feral cats "community cats." They are not members of a community, they are neglected and invasive animals. Failing to even try to home these animals is not cute. They shouldn't be uplifted as a feature of a community. It fails that community, the cats, and the environment they are a part of. We don't do that with dogs, don't do it with cats. Cats aren't special.

#animal welfare #outdoor cats

[agro-carnist]

Its good that people are talking about the “noble savage” stereotype and how it is harmful and at the same time I keep seeing climate doomers claim that anything related to indigenous environmentalism or traditional ecological technology is just a product of that stereotype and it makes me want to scream.

[agro-carnist]

[agro-carnist]

It also makes me upset that I'm mentally and emotionally effected by this kind of stuff I have to do when I remember people were calling me a predator getting off to the injured animals I work with

I have to rant a bit based on events from a few days ago. Whenever I share that my opinion is that feral unadoptable cats should be euthanized instead of TNR'd or left "wild" I am faced with people that call me a heartless monster that hates cats. This week a client of where I work has been bringing in cats from a litter that are extremely feral and causing problems for her own cats and elderly husband to have them all euthanized. I had to help the vet anesthetize all of them and then euthanize them one after the other. I think there were 8 or 9 in the litter. All of them were under a year old. And already some of the most feral cats I've seen since working there. The whole thing was heartbreaking and has left a permanent mark on my conscience. I hate that we had to do that to healthy cats and that no one ever got to care for them. I hate that their bodies have to be cremated and then thrown away like trash. I had to do this when none of these people will ever have to do such a thing. And I still think it was the best decision for these animals and I wish more people considered this option. I hold this opinion even as I carry this burden.

Spay and neuter your cats. Keep them inside.